I finally have my trunk back!!!

[stealthredline2]

deff not walmar6t speakers and deff not jensen

[Redn8r3]

i understand its very possible for 8's to beat 12's in sound quality, its just easier to get the performance you want with a pair of twelve's.

your equipment means nothing without the right type of enclosure and surrounding environment needed to nuture the correct sound from your setup.

thats why some systems sound way better in certain cars... the cars are better accoustically........

i was just wondering what the specifics are on your setup, you have to have a good starting point before even worrying about the accoustic tuning portion.

i was running one kicker cvr 12" dual 4 ohm voice coils... with 2 800w sony amps, both 2ohm stable class d.

i this setup was very stable, kept cool and ran extremely efficient.. plus pounded the crap out of my car.... dont get me wrong, it was good clean crisp bass, little to no distortion. i made my own fiberglass box just for that sub's recommended ft3 (sealed) and it worked great.

was it necessary to have all that power (1600w max)? no.... but i wanted the extra thump when i wanted it. its very easy to setup a smaller system and get the sound you want, it just has to be "tuned" right and setup correctly.


thats why i was asking what the specifics were. not to say that 8's cant beat 12's

thanks for the info.

-nate

[Mikeyredline]

Originally Posted by Redn8r3

i understand its very possible for 8's to beat 12's in sound quality, its just easier to get the performance you want with a pair of twelve's.

your equipment means nothing without the right type of enclosure and surrounding environment needed to nuture the correct sound from your setup.

thats why some systems sound way better in certain cars... the cars are better accoustically........

i was just wondering what the specifics are on your setup, you have to have a good starting point before even worrying about the accoustic tuning portion.

i was running one kicker cvr 12" dual 4 ohm voice coils... with 2 800w sony amps, both 2ohm stable class d.

i this setup was very stable, kept cool and ran extremely efficient.. plus pounded the crap out of my car.... dont get me wrong, it was good clean crisp bass, little to no distortion. i made my own fiberglass box just for that sub's recommended ft3 (sealed) and it worked great.

was it necessary to have all that power (1600w max)? no.... but i wanted the extra thump when i wanted it. its very easy to setup a smaller system and get the sound you want, it just has to be "tuned" right and setup correctly.


thats why i was asking what the specifics were. not to say that 8's cant beat 12's

thanks for the info.

-nate

Nate,
It depends on the specifics you were looking for. Again, the ability to play loud, thump, or any of that goes far beyond wattage, woofer size, and how many voic coils a driver has.

As far as the theology behind the design, is that what you are looking for?

[Redn8r3]

i meant:

whats the amps peak power and rms power by 1 channel at 2 ohms.

are the subs dual voice coil? whats the subs peak power handling and rms?

are you running them in parallel or series?

those are the specifics i was asking about...

thanks

-nate

[Mikeyredline]

Originally Posted by Redn8r3

i meant:

whats the amps peak power and rms power by 1 channel at 2 ohms.

are the subs dual voice coil? whats the subs peak power handling and rms?

are you running them in parallel or series?

those are the specifics i was asking about...

thanks

-nate

Originally Posted by Redn8r3

i meant:

whats the amps peak power and rms power by 1 channel at 2 ohms.

are the subs dual voice coil? whats the subs peak power handling and rms?

are you running them in parallel or series?

those are the specifics i was asking about...

thanks

-nate

The subs are not DVC subs, which is a good thing if you are not driving them with separate channels. Even when you wire a DVC sub to use wired together there are delays that occur and the efficiency is basically killed. You can ruin the output and increase harmonic distortion that way.

I told you the power handling. Please read the article on amplifier power ratings in my previous post. These numbers mean nothing but 300WRMS and 600 Max input (nothing on peak) for the system.

Your Sony 800W amps are likely only 150 REAL watts or so (if that even!). and you introduce SOOOOO much switching noise and DC with class "d" amps that you can just as easily hurt a speaker. Class D will provide more intentions power due to a better slew rate, however for extended (over 10ms) amounts of a given frequency, an inexpensive amp will lose its ability to filter out the PWM and you get more DC to the coil, turning it into a heater.

Chances are those effects are all non audible, given the volume a sub system runs at and 3rd order harmonics are harder to detect below 100Hz. That's why I am reluctant to give cold, hard numbers.

Also, since everything plays together so importantly, you can easily blow a sub system easier by under powering it, than overpowering it.

"bridged" or Series wiring. Bridges is series, they call it bridging because you are "bridging" the two channels with a jumper, and if you look at Kirchoff's voltage law, when you add to like power sources in series, you get double the effective power, or 3dB in gain.

Parallel wiring lowers the load resistance that the amp "sees". Ideally the Rl (not redline but resistive load) and Rout matches. When this happens you have maximum power transfer. Think supercharger and pulley on this one. If an amp operates BEST at 4 ohms and you put a 4 ohm load on it, it is easy for the amp to drive and you get the most efficient, distortion free sound. When you lower that load, the amp needs to up the current to make up for the difference in loading which generates more heat, and it's ability to dissipate heat may make it "2-ohm or 1-ohm" stable. But you effective gain going from 4 ohms to t is only 3dB, and from 8 to 2 is only 6dB. Which in the great scheme of things in not all that much. Most people who have a "loud" system barely listen "loud" over 90-95dB. When you start getting over that it is physically painful. Even the loudest nightclub is 105dB. So to think you can approach 110dB with 212WRMS input to these subs at 8 ohms starts to put things into perspective. Bottom line, they can be wired either way. 2 ohms, or 8. 8 is just easier for the entire system.

I have no doubt you system works and maybe it sounds great and I am happy for you if you like it! You should. I am most certainly not comparing the 2 systems by any means either. But there are different ways of getting to the finish line. You can throw as much power at as big of woofer you can. Or you can engineer, which I have yet to meet anyone ant any shop anywhere who really engineers a system, maps a cars acoustic curve. It's just a passion of mine, and always has been. Also, I can tune this box to have more extended bass, or punchier pass depending on what people like by adjusting just a few minor variables.

Long winded me got carried away again, it just seems you may want to know more about specifications. The safest things to assume is all commercially available product, though some is good, they are inflating their numbers BIG TIME.

[Redn8r3]

thanks for my answer? i guess.

im going to assume your running these two 8 ohm subs in series with a 212wrms amp.... and your pushing 110db...

i find that hard to believe, especially with some no name subs and amp your running, but thats just my personal opinion.

either way thanks for the info.

[Mikeyredline]

Originally Posted by Redn8r3

thanks for my answer? i guess.

im going to assume your running these two 8 ohm subs in series with a 212wrms amp.... and your pushing 110db...

i find that hard to believe, especially with some no name subs and amp your running, but thats just my personal opinion.

either way thanks for the info.

Sorry you could not find the answer in the factual information I provided.

Unfortunately with audio, hearing is believeing, not seeing. I just wish you lived close enough to hear the set-up.

And FYI, if you read what was posted it is not 2 8ohm subs in series LOL!

[Redn8r3]

Originally Posted by Mikeyredline

So to think you can approach 110dB with 212WRMS input to these subs at 8 ohms starts to put things into perspective. Bottom line, they can be wired either way. 2 ohms, or 8. 8 is just easier for the entire system.

sorry if that doesnt directly say your running these in an 8ohm configuration, than i just cant decipher all that babbling, i didnt ask hard questions.... but i understand you dont want to say what your running here.

thanks for the "factual info" either way...

[raptors_67]

Your Sony 800W amps are likely only 150 REAL watts or so (if that even!). and you introduce SOOOOO much switching noise and DC with class "d" amps that you can just as easily hurt a speaker.

AB amps have as much a tendancy to introduce distortion during switching than does a D introduce a DC component during it's switching. Also, over something like a 10ms range lets say, a D amp will not achieve maximum voltage over that time as it switches from the 0 point to maximum due to charge delay in reaching that maximum. Having said this, I use all AB amplifiers in all 3 of my personal vehicles setups so that just shows what I think about D amplfiers although for different reasons than these.

I must say that I really appreciate what you have done in this application as I am really tired of the bigger is better mentality and this is a perfect example of efficiency through design. I agree with pretty well everything you have said in this post but I think trying to demonstrate vast superiority with some of these posts is the wrong way to go about replying. People here are just asking simple questions and you know very well they aren't looking for answers like these.

One thing to keep in mind is the fact that the trunks in the redlines are fairly large for a compact-ish type car.... but not large enough of an airspace for dual 12's to perform well and I think this is what Mikeyredline is getting at with his posts. That's not to say you CAN'T make a dual 12 or 10 setup work well, it's just going to take a lot more work than a setup like this. And on top of that, popping the trunk for your buddies and the look on there faces when they seetwo little 8's expecting to see a couple 12's is funny too.


What's the deal with the wiring though? perhaps a longer set of RCA's are in order? Maybe even moving the amp to the backside of the box?

[Mikeyredline]

Originally Posted by raptors_67

AB amps have as much a tendancy to introduce distortion during switching than does a D introduce a DC component during it's switching. Also, over something like a 10ms range lets say, a D amp will not achieve maximum voltage over that time as it switches from the 0 point to maximum due to charge delay in reaching that maximum. Having said this, I use all AB amplifiers in all 3 of my personal vehicles setups so that just shows what I think about D amplfiers although for different reasons than these.

I must say that I really appreciate what you have done in this application as I am really tired of the bigger is better mentality and this is a perfect example of efficiency through design. I agree with pretty well everything you have said in this post but I think trying to demonstrate vast superiority with some of these posts is the wrong way to go about replying. People here are just asking simple questions and you know very well they aren't looking for answers like these.

One thing to keep in mind is the fact that the trunks in the redlines are fairly large for a compact-ish type car.... but not large enough of an airspace for dual 12's to perform well and I think this is what Mikeyredline is getting at with his posts. That's not to say you CAN'T make a dual 12 or 10 setup work well, it's just going to take a lot more work than a setup like this. And on top of that, popping the trunk for your buddies and the look on there faces when they seetwo little 8's expecting to see a couple 12's is funny too.


What's the deal with the wiring though? perhaps a longer set of RCA's are in order? Maybe even moving the amp to the backside of the box?

A/B amps have no "switching" noise. Switching noise is common only do "D" or digital amps, unless you are refferring to the noise generated due to the switching delay between the "push" transistor and "pull" transistor (at 0 and 180 degrees for 1 full wave), which not only can be filtered out unlike class "D", but when used in a PNP and NPN setup are almost non -existant. Also you reffer to 10mS swing in voltage an the transistors inability to achieve maximum voltage? Most FETS used in high power designs have a slew rate FAR quicker than mS... Usually uS, unless you are talking about the charging constant of the power supply and it's ability to reach 5-tau. Even then you are reaching at least 4-Tau in uS (assuming the supply is designed properly). And that assumes perfect conditions.

I am not trying to achieve technical supiriority or arrogance, in fact, there are those who know much more than I. And the members around here who know me know that is the exact oppsite of whi I am, but after being in audio design for over 15 years, and using some common sence, these things are not as easy of answers as yes, no, 600 watts. And by the sound of it, you know that

Mabye it was my mistake for trying to educate. My intention was not to confuse however I do not believe in misrepresentation like all commercially available product. Or giving numbers when there are no established standards for doing so. Again you seem like you know all of this already.

Just know my intent was not malitious, or to come across arrgoant, you will see I included links to information n' all as well to try and help. I will admit frustration that people assume the worst instantly sometimes before they know what they are even refering to.

As far as the wire goes...Ask Manticsungfu. lol.

Thanks for the input.

BTW, have you ever seen published data on Bose product? there is none, yet people eat it up.... Makes you think, huh? (Don't even get me on that issue)

Not responsible for typos... at work and in a hurry!