Getting more negative camber

[scottherbert]

I have followed sever discussions about getting more negative camber out of the redline's front suspention -- including one where someone said there's a modification listed in a Saturn service manual -- but no one has ever actually described the modification. I need detailed information about the discussed modification(s).

I am planning to SCCA SOLO II in DS, but I will have a better chance with a couple of degrees of negative camber. I'd appreciate some more details about this 'factory' modification.

Thanks in advance...

(BTW, I've just purchased a new 2006 redline -- Saturn bought-back my 2004 redline.)

[crazybrew609]

lets see.. where to start... oh how about not doing it... your stock camber setting is actually set perfect for auto-crosses... if you want you can go out -.05º but thats basicly as far as you would want to go... anything more and your gunna start to effect your ability to get into corners.. plus your tires are gunna wear down with a more negetive setting to where uo might only be getting 10k out of the tires if not less which is more then a 50% decrease in tire life...

now if you still want to do it the "factory" modification is to grind out the top hole on the strut... you want to grind it out towards the engine not towards the tire... MAKE SURE YOU ONLY DRILL OUT THE SAME WIDTH IF YOU MAKE THE HOLE TO TALL YOU RUN THE RISK OF NEVER GETTING A PROPER ALIGNMENT FOR THE STRUT AND WILL NEED A NEW ONE... now i still don't see why you would want to do this but whatever floats your boat i guess

oh and the rear camber is actually more important then the front... the problem tho is that you can't adjust your rear camber unless you completely adjust your complete rear sub-frame... your better off buying a front strut tower bar and a rear end tie from torque forward then going and playing around with your alignment

[Sp00ner]

Your front camber is at least as important as rear for a FWD car running the track. The bulk of the weight is on them. They are the ones that deflect the most under hard turns. On a Camaro, the rear is more important.

[superbird]

dude if u were going f with that crap id go to a alingment shop to make sure that its properly alinged afterwards.

[Blu_Redline]

Originally Posted by crazybrew609

lets see.. where to start... oh how about not doing it... your stock camber setting is actually set perfect for auto-crosses...

No it isn't. It is set for optimum tire wear and going straight down bumpy roads. All the Maximun negative camber that you can get out of the front end will be best for auto crossing, it will just not be as good for highway driving.

[Sp00ner]

Ok, so lets bring this back. Can someone tell me how much negative camber we can run on the Redline stock? I'm going to get an alignment this week, so I'd like to know where to aim.

Also, an instructor advised me that for a street driven car, I should set the camber negative to some degree, and then set the toe near zero to slow the tire wear effect. Is this something anyone else has experience with?

[yrethguad]

Setting the toe to "zero" will minimize the scrubbing against the road when going in a straight line, but having more weight on the inside of the tire will still cause more wear than the outside. You will still "scrub" whever you accel/decel and turn.


The only way to know if you camber is optimal is the test it. You need a temp probe, a skid pad, and a helper. Anything else is just a shot in the dark, and you risk increased wear, possible reduction in traction, and a possible change in the feel of your car, throwing you off.

Cliff: Unless you are going to do the proper testing, I say leave it alone. But, then again, I'm just the Honda troll.

[Sp00ner]

Originally Posted by yrethguad

Setting the toe to "zero" will minimize the scrubbing against the road when going in a straight line, but having more weight on the inside of the tire will still cause more wear than the outside. You will still "scrub" whever you accel/decel and turn.


The only way to know if you camber is optimal is the test it. You need a temp probe, a skid pad, and a helper. Anything else is just a shot in the dark, and you risk increased wear, possible reduction in traction, and a possible change in the feel of your car, throwing you off.

Cliff: Unless you are going to do the proper testing, I say leave it alone. But, then again, I'm just the Honda troll.

I'd love to test it, but I'm not familar with the process... and I have limited resources. Gimme some advice here troll, and I shall bring you many children to feed on! muahahahaha.

I'd like to just start with setting some negative camber, maybe a degree or so, and leave everything else stock. Is there a way that I can tell anything about my alignment with out the whole setup that a shop uses?

[cavingman]

i see no one has mention that the ion has no rear or front camber or caster adjustments and has no rear toe adjustment.

the only adjustment your going to be able to make is front toe, unless you shim the front struts. in which case your doing what crazybrew mentioned.

this is what the fsm has to say:
Front Camber Adjustment
Loosen both strut to knuckle nuts just enough to allow for movement.

If the strut has not been modified previously, perform the following steps before continuing with the wheel alignment:
Disconnect the strut from the knuckle. Refer to Strut Assembly Replacement in Front Suspension.
File the lower hole until the groove of the stamped ring around the hole.
Connect the strut to the knuckle. Refer to Strut Assembly Replacement in Front Suspension.

Adjust the camber to specification by moving the top of the wheel in or out. Refer to Wheel Alignment Specifications .



http://servicemanual.myionredline.com/wheelali.htm

[yrethguad]

Yeah, caving, there typically is not much adjustability in a production suspension. That's where the aftermarket support usually comes in.

Sp00ner, there's a book titled the "High-Performance Handling Handbook" by Don Alexander. Here's a link. DON'T JUDGE THE BOOK BY IT'S COVER!!! I know you rolled your eyes as soon as you saw it. It's not a Honda book. I repeat, it IS NOT a Honda book. It's all about suspension parts and tuning. Which includes testing, of course. It's an excellent read.

Actually, I'm off. The testing using that equipment was for getting the right tire pressure. You may be able to do the same to get a good idea of your camber setup.

One way to test for optimal camber, is a series of skidpad runs, timed of course, while dialing in different camber between runs. Consult the data to find out which setting is best. Also, do the same to adjust toe, and your handling balance (any sway bar adjustments, for over/understeer). There's a good order to do this in the book. I believe it's sway bar, toe, then camber. Toe is mainly a change for turning-in, so it may not apply as much as the other two, since the skid pad is for a constant turn, finding the most sustainable turning force.

Since I mentioned the tire pressure test, to do that, using a temp probe, skid pad, and a buddy, set your pressure, do several turns around the skid pad, or a lap around the track, getting the tires hot. Stop by your buddy, and let him take at least 3 measurements. One inside, center, and outside. He has to do it quickly, as the heat will dissipate. The best probe for this will actually stick in to the tire, about 1/16" (I believe), to get the best measurement, as the heat will leave the surface right away. The goal is to get the temps as even as possible across the tire. Adjust, rinse, and repeat.