Small Car Bash at Indy

[ender]

I stopped by the tent at the small car bash just as the guy was zipping up. So very high and mighty GM performance guys kicking back with beers where supprised to see me but talked to me about somethings. The 2.2 supercharger kit is 6months away. He didn't know anything about the stage kits, and this is the guy that would know . He wanted to make sure that I came back tomarrow to talk with him....I let him know that we wanted some factory support....He reached into the desk and pulled out a build book, he gave me two . GM is really after this tuner market. I'll try to get as much out of him as possible tomorrow.

[ender]

SO here is the deal on the GM performance parts upgrades, by Jan-March they will be out in a confirmed 2 stages. Plus I got Bobs personal email address and I can ask him any questions and if he doesn't know he will find someone at GM that does. Stage 1 is 'problly'going to be a smaller pulley with a retune...in all he promises about 215-to 230hp for the first releases, keep in mind thats the same way they got 205 for the original number. So if you want to wait for GM parts they are coming, I was promised. They are as excited about this stuff as we are and they smile and nod a lot when you ask questions they arnt supposed to answer. They also search the boards to find out what we want for our cars. Bobs cavy was a 2.2(old) with n2o and a big turbo on it. I think I will wait for GM to start moding my power levels.

[Kirtsky]

Cool ender. Thanks for getting some info from the GM guys. I send regular mail, both e-mail and letters to GM and GM performance division asking for info and asking for parts to be made available. Hope the Stage stuff pans out, most of all, hope they keep prices at a sane level. If they want a tuner market, they have to remembver that a lot of the "tuners" are not able to drop a grand+ for horsepower.

Also, I will probably have to go to a dealer 80 miles away for anything, as my local techs know less about the car than I do, sadly...

[WopOnTour]

Which Bob?
Bob Lutz?
bob.lutz@gm.com
WOT

[ender]

no BOB KERN, I dont think Lutz would have been caught dead in this tuned out cavy. He doesnt like to talk techy but he is the guy that started this deal. The build book is his brain child I guess. His philosophy is we(GM) have money, we can break it, modify it and try to break it again and then sell the finished product to you(us) so you dont have to do the R&D yourself. Thats why the build book has the limits in it. He really does want feedback from us on what we are doing and he takes that back to GM and says this is what the kids want parts wise and this is what they need to know. He understands we want to know how it works not just buy random parts. My first email is going to be about the LSJ, the build books focus is on the L61 I want the GM guys to tell me what our bottom end will really handle.

[WopOnTour]

Originally Posted by ender

no BOB KERN, I dont think Lutz would have been caught dead in this tuned out cavy. He doesnt like to talk techy but he is the guy that started this deal. The build book is his brain child I guess. His philosophy is we(GM) have money, we can break it, modify it and try to break it again and then sell the finished product to you(us) so you dont have to do the R&D yourself. Thats why the build book has the limits in it. He really does want feedback from us on what we are doing and he takes that back to GM and says this is what the kids want parts wise and this is what they need to know. He understands we want to know how it works not just buy random parts. My first email is going to be about the LSJ, the build books focus is on the L61 I want the GM guys to tell me what our bottom end will really handle.

OK
bob.kern@gm.com then! (I was only kiddng about Lutz)
If you read your build book, it already addresses the LSJ bottom end. The limiting factor would be the rods. Basically they don't officially recommend the LSJ connecting rods past 300HP (see page 61) Using the EAGLEs or other true performance rod + power adder to 400 HP with no problems. I found it a bit annoying that they show the build up in the 250-400HP section, installing the LSJ rods with special forged pistons for the 2.2 (we have that already) -THEN state in the parts listing the LSJ rod is only good to 300HP!! Anyways a set of the EAGLE H-beam rods are pretty cheap, $300-400 (I've paid that for ONE rod!) and they can be replaced IN THE CAR in a few hours or less, so really the 400HP build-up is really very achievable, just not with only M62 as the sole power-adder IMO.
WOT

[ender]

Originally Posted by WopOnTour

I found it a bit annoying that they show the build up in the 250-400HP section, installing the LSJ rods with special forged pistons for the 2.2 (we have that already) -THEN state in the parts listing the LSJ rod is only good to 300HP!!
WOT

Thats what I mean, I want to know for sure that If I want 300whp I have to swap out the rods and pistons,maybe valve springs....and he crossed out his work email and wrote his personal email on it...either he was blowing me off or really wants to get crazy emails from me everyday.

Plus I keep wondering if an m92 might help or even work? or if a 2.2 Patriot(sp?) head might fit our 2.0.......are the heads the same between the two? I have enough knowledge to think about all of this but not enough to know if it would work or not. I just want to start pulling away from all of these older Z28s and mustangs that are so damn annoying around here....*rant over*

[WopOnTour]

Roger that
I realize now what you meant by "confusion" in the build book.
In any case it's not worth the $350 and a few hours to risk the LSJ rods IMO. The EAGLEs use the same 20mm full floating pins, plus the wrist pin ends are "bushed" so that combined with their lighter weight should be good for a "handful" of HP on it's own. http://www.lmperformance.com/3106/23.html
I personally beleive they dont mention the LSJ pistons, as (as you mentioned) the lower HP buildups are all based on the longer stroked 2.2 and specifically in the 400HP build they 1st recommend only a forged piston on page 42 (which BTW the LSJ is) then they casually mention (on the same page) a "drop-in" GMPP piston (again for the 2.2 crank) that apparently is NOT forged as it later states they are only good to 300HP. THEN in the 400 build they go ahead and use the Diamond piston (page 54) WITH the LSJ rod just to state later in the parts list the LSJ rods are for "less than 300HP". WTF??

To the best of my knowledge, valve springs would only become an issue if you changed cams/lift or planned to take it above 7000 RPM. Which shouldnt really be necc to achieve 400HP at 6500-7000. It's all external flow and boost (not really affected by the valvetrain) If anything the adjustable cam gears (to get some exhaust retard to reduce overlap) might be more approprite
I'm currently running 0.511" lift on my 2.2 up to 6500 (the L61 has the same rev limiter/redline as the LSJ) using the same stock springs and I've never heard em float!
WopOnTour