Frequently Asked Questions: Performance FAQ

[socalsilverRL]

For teh n00bs.

If you have any questions that you see on here regularly, and want answered here, please post, and I will add it here.

Hopefully NoRemorse will come in here later and clean things up to keep it as helpful as possible.

A few questions we came up with:

1) Can you put a Blow Off Valve (BOV) on the redline?

A) No, Goofyguy found a way of putting some kind of BOV on his car, but it did nothing for performance, and was an immense amount of work.

2) What's the Size of the Stock Exhaust?

A) 2.75" at up until after the catalytic converter, 2.5" through the resonator, tapering down to 2.25" at the bend right before the axle.

3) What's the bolt pattern of our car?

A) 5 x 110mm, shares with many GM cars (SAAB, Cadillac, Pontiac, Chevy, etc.)

4) What's the Size & Offset of the stock rim?

A) 17" tall by 7" wide, with a +38mm offset

5) What is the stock tire size, and speed rating?

A) 215/45/17 Z-Rated Dunlop SP9000. The Maximum rolling diameter is about 27".

6) What type of intercooler does the redline have/ Can I put a Front Mount InterCooler (FMIC) on the redline?

A) The redline comes equipped with a water-to-air intercooler. The "charge air cooler" is located directly underneath the Supercharger. The system uses a electric pump (flowing @ 7 GPM) to flow 50/50 Dex-cool, to a Heat-Exchanger located between the factory Radiator and the Air Conditioning Condenser. This cools the charged (heated) air coming out of the Supercharger, and is much more efficient than an air-to-air FMIC. And, NO, you cannot put a FMIC on the Redline, BUT you CAN upgrade the heat exchanger.

7) What type of fuel system does the Redline have?

A) It has a returnless style fuel rail, with an in-tank fuel pump, and an internal fuel pressure regulator.

8) What size are the stock injectors?

A) 32 lb/hr., or ~336cc/min. High Impedance, Square Plug

9) What size are the GMPP Stage 1/2 Injectors?

A) 42.5 lb/hr., or ~446cc/min. High Impedance, Square Plug

10) What type of supercharger does the Redline have?

A) An Eaton Generation V (5) M62 (62 cubic inch) roots-type supercharger. Its positive displacement, and puts out 1 Litre of air per revolution.

11) What size is the stock supercharger pulley?

A) 3.35 inches, producing 10-12.5lbs of pressure (depending on Altitude, and limited by the ECM)

12) What is the size of the GMPP Stage 2 pulley?

A) 78mm, or about 3.1"

13) What is the size of the GMPP Stage 3 pulley?

A) 76mm, or about 2.95"

14) What's the smallest pulley I can run with the stock injectors?

A) 3.15 inches. That will net you about a 2psi gain over stock.

15) When do I need bigger injectors?

A) When you exceed 85% Injector Duty Cycle (IDC). Stock injectors, when you go passed a 3.15" pulley. Stage 2, when you go passed a 2.9" pulley.
NOTE: It is IMPERATIVE to increase fuel flow when running a smaller pulley

16) What's the maximum rotational speed of the supercharger?

A) 16,000 RPM's sustained. Faster in short bursts. To calculate SC max speed:
redline x (6/pulley size)


17) What's the RPM redline?

A) Stock is 6450 RPM, and Stage 1/2 is 7000 RPM, Stage 3 allows for up to 8000 RPM (but will require stiffer valve springs, and head porting to reduce exhaust heat).

18) What's the Maximum speed of the Redline?

A) 155 MPH is the limit within the ECM. One special Redline achieved 212mph on Methanol + a Turbo (Bonneville redline)

19) What is "Limp" mode/ I bounced off the limiter and now have no power/ What is this "reduced power" light?

A) You have hit what’s called "limp mode" or "reduced power" mode. There will be a light illuminated on the far right of your gauge cluster, that looks like an engine, with a downward pointing arrow inside it...and you will notice that it has no throttle response, and feels heavy and sluggish. You have this because you did something wrong, (bouncing off the limiter, improper tune, random malfunction)...this feature is to save your engine. Try not do what you did to get it there. If you have a OBDII code scanner, you can reset the Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC's) stored in your car's ECU, and you will regain power. DO NOT try to tune-out the sensor fail frequencies to eliminate this feature, it should only be adjusted by A TUNING PROFFESIONAL!

*NOTE*: If have limp mode occuring on a regular basis, or on a stock tune, there may be a larger problem with either yout tune, or engine.

20) What are the stock spark plugs?

A) NGK BKR6ES gapped at 0.045"

21) What are the best spark plugs for Stage 2 and what gap should they be at?


A) A "One Stage Colder" plug is recommended to prevent knock. On a 3.0"-2.8" pulley, most use NGK BKR7es, gaped at .040-.045. Smaller than a 2.8" pulley, some recommend "Two Stage Colder" plugs, i.e. NGK BKR8es, gapped at .040. For places with 91 octane, most will run BKR8es', gapped at .040-.045, (with their 2.9" or less pulley’s) to help reduce knock.

Originally Posted by www.Intense-racing.com, for BKR7e plugs

Stage 1 - 3.30" to 3.20" supercharger pulley - .045" gap
Stage 2 - 3.10" to 3.00" supercharger pulley - .045" gap
Stage 3 - 2.90" to 2.80" supercharger pulley - .040" gap
Stage 4 - 2.70" to 2.60" supercharger pulley - .035" gap
Stage 5 - 2.50" supercharger pulley - .035" gap

*NOTE* When determining plug gap, always remember, too wide of a gap will induce "spark blowout," and you may misfire. Too small of a gap, and you do not get as hot of a spark. Use the above for reference, not fact.

ADVANCED QUESTIONS:
1) What does adding timing do?

A) Simple Answer: Adding Timing adds power, untill you create knock. The best timing results from maximizing flame speed, and burning the entire amount of fuel. The degrees of timing, "°", refers to the time the ignition (spark) takes place Before (piston) Top Dead Center (BTDC). So 10° means that the spark is taking place 10° before piston TDC. Too much timing results in detonation, and high cylinder temperatures.
For a better answer, follow link at the bottom "Timing info"

2) What is Knock?

A) Knock is the common term for Pre-detonation. Knock occurs when the air-fuel mixture ignites before the ingition system sparks. Pre-detonation can occur in many situations. Not enough fuel, low octane rating, excessively hot cylinder temperatures, too hot of spark plugs, etc. You cannot hear knock occuring, until it is too much knock (its kinda like a pinging sound). Too much knock can result in engine failure due to high cyl. temps, ring damage, valve damage, etc. Bottom line, try to avoid knock.

3) What is negative camber, and what does it do?

A) Simple answer...Negative Camber is when you bring the tops of your tires in further than the stock setting.
so your tires look like this: /===\
instead of this: |===|

It helps initial turn-in on some vehicles, but creates excessive tire wear, and toe-out is sometimes needed to create proper steering balance.

The RL has a stock camber of about -1°, and can be increased to -2° by drilling the holes on your strut tower. I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING THIS YOURSELF, please consult a proffesional before making ANY modifications to your suspension set-up.

4)What is HP Tuners?

A) HP Tuners (HPT) is the ONLY tuning program that is able to tune the factory ECU. It will allow you to "tune" for modifications done to your engine. It will also allow you to change the base fuel/ignition maps (and a LOT of other settings) within the factory ECU. Follow the links at the bottom for more info.

*NOTE*: Before purchasing HPT you may want to check your local library for books on tuning EFI, and factory ECU systems. One good book, How to tune and modify engine management systems, by Jeff Hartman

[rlinbatonrouge]

Most important one:

Why doesn't the link for the shortbus work?

SoCal - The proper link for the shortbuss (a.k.a. cobaltss(dot)net), is:

www.lsjforums.com (or as we refer to it here shortbuss.net)

Visa Versa:
Over there, they have the same restriction on the links, so use:

www.ionforums.com , and youll be directed here.

[socalsilverRL]

FAQ CONT'D:
Q) Can I put a 'boost controller' on the LSJ?
A) Short answer, NO!. This is not a turbo car.
Long answer, the only thing a MBC or EBC would do, would bleed off the pressurized air going to the boost solenoid so that the bypass valve in the supercharger never opens. You can effectively do this by removing one of the lines going to the actuator (I refuse to tell you wich one, because it really doesnt do anything other than damage your engine).

Q) Are there differences between the stage kits for different model years?
A) No, all of the stage kits are physically the same. Once the dealership installs the kit, they must contact GM for your 'calibration' tune. Only the tunes are very slightly different.

Q) Are there differences between the '04 redlines and the '05-'07 redlines?
A) Yes. The 2004 Ion Redline is a special breed. The have a few things that will NOT interchange with the 2005+ MY. For example:
1) The Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) gear on the '04's is located on the intermediate shaft, whereas the 2005+ MY Redline has the VSS located inside the transmission. This is what mainly affects tunes between the '04 and '05 MY, due to a difference in tooth count on the VSS. The VSS plays an integral role in the injector and IGN timing cycles.
2) The front transmission mounts are NOT interchangeable. The '04 has a completely different front transmission mount that was redesigned for the 2005+ MY. If you were able to get the subframe from a 2005+MY, then the transmission mount would work from the 2005+MY. The difference is in the subframe, not where the trans/engine sits.

...other than a few interior items, the rest of the car is he same for the rest of the MY.

[KSC]

Excellent idea!

Socal, what I would do now is take other sticky threads or popular threads and put them here, example

Who makes rims for the Redline? ANSWER

OK, Thanks for the space KSC
-MGMT

Links:
Engine DTC List: RedLine LSJ DTC List
Pulley info: Pulley Swap, Sizes, and Info...
Spark Plug Info: Spark Plug references.
Intercooler Info: LSJ Charge Air Cooler Video
GM Build Book: LSJ Build books... or http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer...L61-Build-Book
GMPP Cam info: http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer...0SHEET.doc.pdf
GM Bonneville Racers: http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/pr.../overview.html
Rim Info: lets start a sticky for wheel brands and models available for the redline and ss...
Tire Size Calc: http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html
Stage 3 questions: http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer...Stage-3-QA.pdf
Timing Info: http://www.centuryperformance.com/timing.asp
HPTuners: http://www.redlineforums.com/forums/tuning-electronics/ or www.hptuners.com
ect....

[fullthrottle]

very nice job Mike. I think this could be broken down even farther into engine performance modifications. transmission mods chassis mods ect. certain torque specs ect. ect. I have a ass ton of specs for the LSJ (as in engine component clearences torque specs ect.) it will have to wait though because i cant access my personal email from here.

another one you could add is why cant alpha break into the 13's with a 270+WHP REDLINE? just playing. ...not really ^_^

[socalsilverRL]

Here is a question i got from the shortbus. The answer is kinda rough, but its general idea is correct. So, here goes:

Originally Posted by NinjaHampster

hey whats the most boost in psi that the stock engine can safely run? and can we run a boost controller?

Ill answer your Boost controller first:
No, boost controlers are for Turbos. The Boost controler messes with the wastegate on a turbo, making it think that there is less boost than there really is. Wastegates control how fast the exhaust turbine spins, and keep it from spinning too fast.

Boost:

well when you get into boost, you gotta know about how boost works, its effects on the motor, and octane gas requirements.

short answer: bout 21-22psi tuned VERY WELL on 93octane

Long answer:
boost is a byproduct of restriction in the engine (compression ratio, small ports, small valves, short diration cams, etc.), and the piling up of air being pushed in. Best way to think about boost, if by Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM). You can fit .5L or 31 cubic inches of air (actually less for efficiency reasons) in each cylinder, so when the blower is puting out 1L (62 cubic inches) of air to fill the cyl. then the pressure ratio is 2:1, or 22psi.

Thats why ported blowers, ported heads, and different cams will lower boost, but flow stays the same. Same amount (if not more) air, less cylinder presure, less stress on head bolts/pistons/rings/etc.

So what does that mean for the LSJ...

The head flows really well ont he LSJ, the valves are good size, and the cam duration is pretty long @ 262°. So everything is there for a good boosted motor. The only problem people have been finding on most engines, was blowing head gaskets, due to head flex/gasket failure, at 20psi. Thats why most switch to a better gasket, and ARP head studs instead of bolts. After that, you can put much more boost in the motor. Until the pistons/rings give out from too much cyl. pressure.

NOW...gas is what holds people back.

Normal 91-93 octane can only run safely, up to 22psi, ON AVERAGE, on a 9-9.5:1 compression ratio (CR), or less. Some are able to do 25psi...but thats on lower compression motors. Higher compression motors (11:1) cant usually go over 7psi. Beyond that, youll need somthing to lower intake temperatures.
When air is compressed, it heats up. Too much heat causes knock (when gas ignites before its supposed to), knock can destroy piston rings and/or pistons.

The drag Ecotec, is able to make 1800hp, running 24 psi, 10:1 CR?, on Methanol, with a dedicated water to air Ice-box intake charge temp cooler. They are actually able to run 24psi into the motor, at a colder temperature than whats outside. And the high octane quality of Methanol and power output, make that car's power.

Now, take that same HP and apply it to a 4g63 Evo motor. To get that, they have to run 32 psi, 9:1 CR, on 114 leaded octane gas (C14). Along wih the Air to Air intercooler, AND a Ice box as well.

The higher octane requires MORE heat (bigger hotter spark) in order to ignite the gas mixture, so it is less affected by knock condition. Thus, you are able to run more PSI/CFM into the motor. More Air = more power.

So...lets recap:
most people are able to run 21-22psi on their LSJ with 93 octane, tuned VERY WELL to eliminate knock.

If you plan on going with more PSI, or a Higher compression, plan on spending a LOT of money on:
1) 100 octane
2) Cooling mods
3) Methanol/Water Injection (cooling mod)
4) Nitrous (cooling mod)

[ninja_of_d00m]

Here's a question that might be worth answering, just so it isn't brought up 5,000 times over again.

Would it be cheaper to just go Stage II, or buy seperate pulley's and injectors?

I just figured if we posted this in a sticky, then we'd have an automatic point of reference to all the n00bs that come in asking that - i've seen it a few times.

[socalsilverRL]

^yea. Ill try to answer this one briefly.

there are only 2 things you have to weigh when deciding to go stage 2, and price is not the limiting factor.

You need to think:
Do I want a warranty?
-or-
I dont think Saturn even knows how to fix my car anyways...

So, if you want to keep your factory (or aftermarket) warranty, then go with stage 2. If you dont care about warranty, go aftermarket.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro's & cons with Stage 2:
You dont have to know how to install a pulley, or injectors, or know how to flash your car.
You keep whats left of your factory warranty.
If you break something in the engine, you should be covered.
OZERMAN used to get you the stage kit for pretty cheap, www.winnersaturnparts.com, but he's out of commision
BUT,
You break something in the trans, you will get flak from the dealer/GM corp., and possibly not get the trans repaired.
You are stuck with the 3.0 pulley, and 42# injectors. (some companies make 2.8" pulleys for the GM hub)
You are stuck with the factory stage 2 tune, that runs very rich. (unless you know someone with HPT)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro's & con's with Aftermarket:
You can use any size pulley that your S/C hub can fit. (anywhere from stock size to 2.5" in some cases)
You can go turbo
You can go twincharged
You can use any size injector that fits into your fuel rail, and you can tune for.
You can flash, and re-flash, and re-flash your car as many times as you want (if you purchase HPT).
You can change AFR's and timing, and a whole bunch of other parameters in the ECU (if you purchase HPT)
You can usually find a LOT of the aftermarket stuff in the 'For Sale' section, and end up getting things cheaper.
BUT,
You need to know how to install a S/C pulley, have the proper tools, and know how to install injectors.
You need to posses a basic knowledge about tuning EFI systems, and modifying the ROM's within the ECU.
If you break ANYTHING, you have to pay for it. The dealer will not fix your car if you blew the motor, and your running a 2.5" pulley on stock injectors.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cost:
Stage 2 (installed at most dealers, including labor): ~$1200
Aftermarket (everything brand new, w/ HPT): $900-1000

[mantiskungfu]

... incase you haven’t heard, Oz is out of commission.....

[socalsilverRL]

^damn....noted. I havent been around a lot, incase anybody noticed.