Finally. EB's E85 Dyno Results

[GMredline]

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Interesting results. From memory I heard that the TVS was 30% larger than the M62. Doesn't seem to be true??

I am interested to hear your opinion on why my car made 40 less hp and 30 less tq then Ryan's car with similar mods.

RyansxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxMine
60# injectors and BRFSxxxxxxxx80# Injectors
3" cat-backxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx2.5" cat-back
Single Pass IMxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxDual Pass Endplate
2.6" Pulleyxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx2.7" pulley
AC Delete

[CBodnar]

is it just me or does it seem like going out and buying tvs isn't really worth it? money wise for how much it cost and how much power you get out of it?

really looking foward to seeing what you will put down with the tvs. just go to the same dyno please.

[Zooomer]

Originally Posted by GMredline

I am interested to hear your opinion on why my car made 40 less hp and 30 less tq then Ryan's car with similar mods.

RyansxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxMine
60# injectors and BRFSxxxxxxxx80# Injectors
3" cat-backxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx2.5" cat-back
Single Pass IMxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxDual Pass Endplate
2.6" Pulleyxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx2.7" pulley
AC Delete

You have a 2.5" exhaust, Ryan is 3"
Ryan has balance shaft delete, you don't
Ryan has electric WP, you have manual
Ryan ran a 2.6", you ran a 2.7
Ryan has single pass, you have dual
Ryan runs a ZZP 3" intake, you run something not as good
Ryan runs a ZZP LS4 TB, I believe you're stock or regular LS4
Ryan runs a ZZP single pass HE, you run something not as good
You run 25 deg timing, Ryan IIRC 27
Ryan did an alignment and picked up power, you probably didn't
Ryan runs a ZZP modular system which has narrowed angle grooves for less belt slip, do you have another brand using ANSI specs?
Ryan has valve springs, not sure if you do
Ryan run the car at 140-150 deg, you run yours at ~175

There's probably more that I'm not catching but you get the idea.

It's really frustrating for me personally and that's why I come across as a dick so much on the forums. Nearly all of the things discussed in threads are things ZZP has already done years ago.

So meth kits are debated for years, dual vs. single pass, running the engine at different temperatures, changing IC pumps, etc.
Imagine how frustrating it is to have already debated things for years and know that you know the answers and watch people argue about stuff and ignore your posts. Unfortunately I let that get the best of me at times and spout off because I'm going nuts and want to yell "I"VE ALREADY DONE THIS" for nearly every mod. That is why ZZP took about 6 months to break every Ecotec record we went for. We just did all the things we already knew worked while everyone else was calling us stupid and saying they were going to wreck us. It was even more frustrating that I couldn't get them to clubgp to read the ending of the book. It's like arguing with a group of people the outcome of a football game you've already seen.

[GMredline]

Originally Posted by Omega_5

Well... he's flowing at least 25 cu-ft more air than you.... which accounts for about half of the power difference.

I gained 2whp and 5wtq going from a 2.8" to a 2.7" pulley. Unless you are referring to the many other contributing factors as Zooom points out below?

Originally Posted by Zooomer

You have a 2.5" exhaust, Ryan is 3"
Ryan has balance shaft delete, you don't
Ryan has electric WP, you have manual
Ryan ran a 2.6", you ran a 2.7
Ryan has single pass, you have dual

Check.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Ryan runs a ZZP 3" intake, you run something not as good

I run the stocker which is 3.25" on the RL and a K&N drop in filter.

The K&N drop filter has a total surface area of approx 42.14".

The K&N Cone filter on the K&N CAI has a total surface area of 30.59".

I don't know the specs of the filter on your CAI but my setup out flows the K&N CAI.

I think there are a lot of RL owners interested in your 3" intake for the RL.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Ryan runs a ZZP LS4 TB, I believe you're stock or regular LS4

I ran an LS4 TB in the past. But I am back on the stocker.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Ryan runs a ZZP single pass HE, you run something not as good

I was on a CX Racing HE on those runs. I installed your S3 HE last night. Easiest HE install I ever did on an LSJ. Very clean install.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

You run 25 deg timing, Ryan IIRC 27

Hmm. I did not push the timing that hard. But I am sure I could have. I would also need to lean out the afr to take advantage of that timing. On those runs I was running low 11s.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Ryan did an alignment and picked up power, you probably didn't

I have a lifetime alinment from Tires Plus. So anytime I make changes to my suspension setup I get the car checked out. But I think those guys are idiots so...

Do you take out all the camber and toe for dyno runs?

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Ryan runs a ZZP modular system which has narrowed angle grooves for less belt slip, do you have another brand using ANSI specs?

The 2.8" was an Intense pulley and the 2.7" was a ZZP pulley. Big ups for using the same bolt pattern as Intense.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Ryan has valve springs, not sure if you do

I don't.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

Ryan run the car at 140-150 deg, you run yours at ~175

140-150? huh? My runs between 172-174 degrees.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

There's probably more that I'm not catching but you get the idea.

I didn't realize his car had all those things done. But the original thread on CSS was deleted so I may have missed it.

Originally Posted by Zooomer

It's really frustrating for me personally and that's why I come across as a dick so much on the forums. Nearly all of the things discussed in threads are things ZZP has already done years ago.

-Edit to add-
When we dropped from a 3.1 to a 2.8" pulley we picked up 55% of the theoretical increase in power. 3.1/2.8=1.107 meaning that with 100% efficiency we would have picked up 10.7% power but we only got 5.9% increase. This is pretty good. We're guessing a small volumetric blower efficiency gain and maybe 52% blower efficiency. On a 2.7 to 2.6" drop the theoretical gain is 3.85% but efficiency would be lower so I would guess ~1.9% power increase or in your case 280 would go to ~285.

Don't feel bad. I was not flaming or anything. I was just trying to figure out how two cars, which I thought were similar, could be so different. But as you pointed out there are many more differences then I initially thought.

Thanks for replying! I really appreciate all your help and all your input in my E85 project. Keep up the good work guys.

[Omega_5]

Originally Posted by GMredline

I gained 2whp and 5wtq going from a 2.8" to a 2.7" pulley. Unless you are referring to the many other contributing factors as Zooom points out below?

The pulley can only supply flow, if the system is capable of supporting the flow.
So, yes... I was referring to the other things, which Zooom also listed (well... most of them).

[Zooomer]

Originally Posted by GMredline

Do you take out all the camber and toe for dyno runs?



The 2.8" was an Intense pulley and the 2.7" was a ZZP pulley. Big ups for using the same bolt pattern as Intense.

-Intense used to sell ZZP products. They then copied our stuff. Coupler, modular system and pulleys, motor mounts, tried to do the TB, and many others. Hearing you say we used the same as them is like a punch to my gut. No need to comment, I'm just venting my personal frustrations.

-We have a local shop do our alignments. I don't know how they set them up but they make more power on the dyno nearly every time. We are having some internal debates in the company about this because we are doubting some aspects of this type of alignment. Tim's car has drastic toe in and it's hurting him on the dyno but at the track he has our best 60' on this platform. We are discussing whether to do more testing or just wait for the chrome moly control arms. We feel the factory setup is causing issue.

-If you only gained 2 WHP going from a 2.8 to 2.7" then there is no point in going lower. That is 3.7% increase in blower speed and less than 1% gain in WHP. Torque numbers going up indicate the blower efficiency due to higher boost and/or rpm is the issue. We'll have a write up on this shortly. I suspect it's due to boost.
-Edit to add- There is a good chance valve springs are not letting you use the engine up top. Float may cause an issue robbing upper rpm HP. Hence why you got the torque gains of 2% (55% of potential gain) but not the HP gain.

This brings me to another point. We rebuild Eaton blowers here. They are all nearly the same due to the mass production process. However, each blower is every so slightly different. When we do max builds on our own cars we'll swap out blowers on the dyno. They vary within 3WHP usually but getting on that makes 1, 2 or 3 WHP more than another means a lot for the best numbers. I hesitate to post information like this because it gets misconstrude on the forums.

[GMredline]

Originally Posted by Zooomer

This brings me to another point. We rebuild Eaton blowers here. They are all nearly the same due to the mass production process. However, each blower is every so slightly different. When we do max builds on our own cars we'll swap out blowers on the dyno. They vary within 3WHP usually but getting on that makes 1, 2 or 3 WHP more than another means a lot for the best numbers. I hesitate to post information like this because it gets misconstrude on the forums.

From it is sounds is that every little thing counts. 1-2 hp gains per "little" mod adds up when you have 20 of them.

[GMredline]

Originally Posted by Zooomer

There's probably more that I'm not catching but you get the idea.

I always forget you guys you STD correction.

It looks like Area47 is getting into the E85 game.

[Area47]

doin a lil experiment more or less.

car is out of fuel.

[GMredline]

Originally Posted by Area47

doin a lil experiment more or less.

car is out of fuel.

Your still on the 2.9" right?