Tunes: Right and Wrong

[KSC]

Something Alpha posted in another thread reminded me that I always wanted to ask this:

I see so many "Does anybody have a tune for (enter mod list here)?

Is any of this way of going about tuning correct?

Guys that own and who are proficient with HPT I assume tune their car, log their car for some miles going through the RPM band, bring it back home, adjust, repeat, adjust, repeat, until it's perfect, yes? Unless you have a dyno I can't see there being any other way.

What about the guys that bring HPT to car shows and the like who have saved tune files for all the combo's of mods. I'm not saying they don't know what they are doing, they could have even created these tunes. What I'm saying is every car is different. What's good for driver A's 2004 Cobalt with 2.8 and 60's may not be so great for Driver B with the same mods, right? I don't think anyone owns their own dyno and I honestly don't think they are spending a few hours with the people they tune? To just flash someone and take their money, is that really okay? Isn't this ONE of the reasons for Intense's failure rate?

Or is okay to tune a car with a broader set of parameters? Isn't that what GM Stage 2 would be considered? Other than the 7 different Caibrations for model years, the tune within the given year is the same, and as I said every car is different...

[NoRemorse]

Originally Posted by KSC

Something Alpha posted in another thread reminded me that I always wanted to ask this:

I see so many "Does anybody have a tune for (enter mod list here)?

Is any of this way of going about tuning correct?

Guys that own and who are proficient with HPT I assume tune their car, log their car for some miles going through the RPM band, bring it back home, adjust, repeat, adjust, repeat, until it's perfect, yes? Unless you have a dyno I can't see there being any other way.

What about the guys that bring HPT to car shows and the like who have saved tune files for all the combo's of mods. I'm not saying they don't know what they are doing, they could have even created these tunes. What I'm saying is every car is different. What's good for driver A's 2004 Cobalt with 2.8 and 60's may not be so great for Driver B with the same mods, right? I don't think anyone owns their own dyno and I honestly don't think they are spending a few hours with the people they tune? To just flash someone and take their money, is that really okay? Isn't this ONE of the reasons for Intense's failure rate?

Or is okay to tune a car with a broader set of parameters? Isn't that what GM Stage 2 would be considered? Other than the 7 different Caibrations for model years, the tune within the given year is the same, and as I said every car is different...

more than anything, you (at least I) have a generic conservative tune for each type of injector. This is the starting point. These generally have TQ management already removed, launch control, and the stage spark advance. I then make a few pulls playing with timing until it is just under the edge of knock. This is of course done with the fuel the will be running normally. This takes maybe 30min total.

Now for someone that wants their car tuned to the edge, they need a WB. first I tune in the fuel to be completely flat in PE. I tune for 11.8 myself. I then log AFR error and fine tune the VE table and from that the MAF sensor. After that I tune the timing tables. This takes most of a day depending on conditions and such.

[AlphaJaguar5]

Every car is a snowflake.

If you have a car with X or Y mods then sure, you can start off tuning a car that has X mods by putting an X tune on it but you can never just leave it at that. There are a ton of different variables that must be accounted for before a car is ready to be given back to the owner.

Exactly +1 to what NR said. I have tunes for every year and every injector already pre set with variables I want every car I tune to have then I go from there to what the car needs depending on mods done owner preferences etc.

I just hate threads that say "Hey I wanna get HPT who else wants in". The price of admission is cheap but the price of failure is large. You really have to be a dork to do this. Ask PUP or my g/f I've wasted SOOO much gas and time driving around tuning my car. Then I'll start from scratch and tune it again trying a completely different method for no reason other than my own curiosity.

[socalsilverRL]

[nerdfest]
well...another thing ive learned about tuning.

WHEN TUNING FOR TIMING!...you should NOT tune to the edge of knock. At that point Exhaust temps can get up to 900+°F (according to a few tuners on EvoM.net) and it is VERY important to get a Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT) probe.

According to corky bell, most alloy pistons melt at 800-1000°F

as far as generic tune...you can have a generic tune for everyone, so long as timing is pulled drastically or matched to stock timing, and fuel is left around 10:1 or 9:1. I wouldnt remove TQ mgmt tho...just my opinion, the car needs MORE TQ mgmt. Keep the tires on the ground.

List of Standard tools any serious cartooner should have:
Drawing board...oh wait...
#1 MOST IMPORTANT: LOGGING DEVICE (i.e. Laptop, pocket logger, or if nothing else, a scan gauge)
#2 Most important: Wideband O2 sensor for measuring AFR
#3 most important: EGT probe for measuring timing changes (sometimes you can tune AFR and timing with just a EGT probe)
#4 Optional: a G-Tech type device for measuring changes to your tune (best option would be a dynomometer)

EDIT: I wanted to come back here and correct a few things. I seem to have conflicting information from 2 books. "Tuning Engine Mgmt Systems" says that usually mean best Tq. is reached at around 11.8-13.3 AFR at 1350°. Lean conditions can shoot EGT temps upwards of 1800°, and that above that temperature we see damages to pistons, but mainly exhaust manifolds (especially if its welded SS) at EGT temps of over 1600°F

[KSC]

Alright, so then you guys do stick around with your tunees for a while and be a bit more specific than a basic tune. You START with those general parameters, then go from there. I guess if the person you are tuning has WB than you can go even further, but if they don't you just stick with the conservative tune, make a few tweaks and everything is cool.

That all makes a lot more sense. I just had an impression in my mind that there were some people with HPT that showed up did a quick flash, grabbed the cash and got the fuck outa Dodge.

[socalsilverRL]

Originally Posted by KSC

I just had an impression in my mind that there were some people with HPT that showed up did a quick flash, grabbed the cash and got the fuck outa Dodge.

^anyone, proffesional or not, that does that is a douche, and does not deserve the money you gave them. The "mail order" flashes definately fall into this category. they may b conservative and run rich. Intense is known for this, their tunes usually run for 10:1 AFR, and mild timing advance...

just flashing and leaving, leaves the tunee high and dry if there is any problems.

a good tuner will flash, then check the car by LOGGING and make sure everything is in check.

to kinda clarify: Intense WILL make changes to your tunes, but you gotta tell them what to do, and send back your mailorder ECU.

[NoRemorse]

Originally Posted by socalsilverRL

well...another thing ive learned about tuning.

WHEN TUNING FOR TIMING!...you should NOT tune to the edge of knock. At that point Exhaust temps can get up to 900+°F (according to a few tuners on EvoM.net) and it is VERY important to get a Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT) probe.

According to corky bell, most alloy pistons melt at 800-1000°F

as far as generic tune...you can have a generic tune for everyone, so long as timing is pulled drastically or matched to stock timing, and fuel is left around 10:1 or 9:1. I wouldnt remove TQ mgmt tho...just my opinion, the car needs MORE TQ mgmt. Keep the tires on the ground.

List of Standard tools any serious cartooner should have:
Drawing board...oh wait...
#1 MOST IMPORTANT: LOGGING DEVICE (i.e. Laptop, pocket logger, or if nothing else, a scan gauge)
#2 Most important: Wideband O2 sensor for measuring AFR
#3 most important: EGT probe for measuring timing changes (sometimes you can tune AFR and timing with just a EGT probe)
#4 Optional: a G-Tech type device for measuring changes to your tune (best option would be a dynomometer)

Aluminum melts at around 1250, and most alloys of it don't melt too far from that.

On most blown cars, the edge of timing will result in the most gains. In NA applications, however, you can start to lose power with out getting knock.

Also, dyno tuning is not all some make it out to be. Sure you can maximize power on the dyno, but road conditions and dyno conditions are VERY different thing, especially in air flow over IC's and HE's.

If you have a logging device, you can do just about everything a 'g-tech' can do. measure 0-60, 1/4 mile times, what ever

[socalsilverRL]

^yea...1250 is aluminum's kindling temperature. Once O2 is added it will oxidize and melt into XAlXO2 (see oxy cutting...lol...you cant actually oxy cut alum without a wasterplate or powder flux). Thats why Corky mentions not to get EGT temps over 900° because usually the ignition temp is well over that during the compression stroke.

EDIT: see post #4

edge of timing is dangerous...Fullthrottle would usually tune to that, then down 1-2°, possibly add a little fuel. Knock can raise EGT temps a LOT...

a gtech is pretty helpful if you use it to log acceleration g's, at WOT, on the exact same stretch of road...ive been able to get some good use out of mine for that. I an a big fan of road tuning, as thats all ive done, but nothing brings out peak HP like dyno tuning. You dyno tune, then road tune after to make drivability in all conditions.

just remember:
Dyno tune = legal
Road tune = illegal (exceeding the speed limit is never legal...)

[NoRemorse]

Originally Posted by socalsilverRL

^yea...1250 is aluminum's kindling temperature. Once O2 is added it will oxidize and melt into XAlXO2 (see oxy cutting...lol...you cant actually oxy cut alum without a wasterplate or powder flux). Thats why Corky mentions not to get EGT temps over 900° because usually the ignition temp is well over that during the compression stroke.

edge of timing is dangerous...Fullthrottle would usually tune to that, then down 1-2°, possibly add a little fuel. Knock can raise EGT temps a LOT...

a gtech is pretty helpful if you use it to log acceleration g's, at WOT, on the exact same stretch of road...ive been able to get some good use out of mine for that. I an a big fan of road tuning, as thats all ive done, but nothing brings out peak HP like dyno tuning. You dyno tune, then road tune after to make drivability in all conditions.

just remember:
Dyno tune = legal
Road tune = illegal (exceeding the speed limit is never legal...)

Oxygen does not make it melt more, it will only raise the burning temp (as in oxyfuel welding and cutting) meaning the o2 has already played its role in combustion temps. Its really not about belting a piston, it's about weakening it with heat, and trying to push on it harder than it can withstand. If it is strong enough at a certain temp, it's not an issue.

as far as a g-tech, you can calculate G's if you k use logged parameters to calculate acceleration (g is just a constant acceleration). and then you can use the cars weight to calculate power just like a gtech.

you can get more airflow doing LEGAL speeds on the road than a dyno, and get REAL loads, not simulated loads (hell, it's a just an inirtial load on a dynojet). HP on a dyno does not mean much as far as HP in use. Conditions are WAY different.

[socalsilverRL]

Originally Posted by NR

Its really not about belting a piston, it's about weakening it with heat

^lol...ill make sure not to belt a piston.

the Gtech is optional...its a fun little toy, and thats what it is...just a toy. Not really meant for more than that, unless you are also trying to tune suspension, but then you need the GTech pro ss that costs $99billion dollars...ive been able to get pretty consistant HP readings from it when i do HP readouts after ECU changes. Just so long as you try to keep all the variables in the same form (road, WOT, and start RPM/Speed).

but i do know i can turn about .89g before the tires start to squeal, then about .92-.93 before the car begins to slide. (on flat ground)

and your right about real loading during road tuning. I have been targeting certain loads while driving to work in the morning. It helps to log a LOT...that way i can get the most different scenarios for tuning. I am going to get a dyno tune once im done road tuning, as i am no real proffesional tuner...just an amature...one day ill become a novice...then maybe one day a proffesional...but until then, that is what ive been doing for the last 4 months, and its been working 'ok' for me...