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Font Suspension Question

5K views 35 replies 10 participants last post by  Cat Ion 
#1 ·
I understand that the 'belly pan' on the Ion Redline is the same as the 'belly pan' on the Cobalt SS -- if so, can anyone tell me if the distance and mounting points for the front A-arms are the same on both vehicles (I'm hoping to find a GM mechanic somewhere).

The reason I ask is because there's a company in Canada making a "sub-frame bar" to connect the front A-arms together for the Cobalt SS - see the enclosed from their website -- remember, this is for a Cobalt SS:

Twin Sub Frame Bar
$129.99
The bar is bolted to the frame where the stock A-arm bolts purtrude. Supplied are 4 high strength bolts that replace the stock A-arm bolts, they are longer, go through the frame and into the bar, and also four nylock nuts that hold the bar in place. NO modifications are needed to mount this part. Made with 1/4" thick steel mounting plates, and 1" wide schedule 40 piping for the bars. Fits 2.0, 2.2, 2.4 Manual Cobalts 2005 - 2007.

The attachment is a picture of the item. I've read reports on the Cobalt SS website that states that it definitely doesn't work with the automatics...

I'm thinking, if this fits the Redline, it might make another interesting suspension control tool. Please advise.

Thanks,
Scott
 

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#4 ·
Front Suspension Sub-Frame Brace

Watts-Up said:
Yep, that's coppertop's subframe brace it fits
Hm-m-m-m. So, in your opinion, and I suspect that you have more time 'under-the-car' than any of us, what they're offering will fit the Redline?

I followed the links for the coppertop's subframe brace discussions on the Web...

If you think that the subframe mounting points are the same, then I guess I can get on the web and buy one and see.

Thanks much for the input!
Scott
 
#6 ·
Thanks much to everybody for the brainpower and thoughts!

I plan to get one in the near future.

By the way, I've been exchanging emails with the people at http://www.racelinewheels.com/ -- and today they tell me that they can build me a custom wheel that measures 17" x 10" with a 12mm positive offset for $448.00 each. While this isn't cheap, it's the first serious width 5x110, 17" wheels I've found and the prices isn't really terrible. Other custom wheels, if they even make anything in 5x110 have all been more than $600 each.

By the way, with 17x10 wheels, you can easily run Hoosier 275/40s (25.4" diameter/ 9-11" rim/ 10.3" on the ground) or 295/35s (25.3" diameter/ 9.5-11" rim/ 10.8" on the ground), a quick reminder the strock 215/45 has a 24.6" diameter. Which means that a Saturn Ion Redline can be VERY competitive in DSP or even SM...

The biggest problem with the Redline in DSP or SM is that we simply can't get enough tire on the ground to be competitive. An recent SCCA article made the point that if you weren't running 275s in DSP you couldn't be competitive -- somewhat true.

Just thought I'd pass it along.

Scott
 
#7 ·
Have you measured to see if you can fit 275's? I know people when lowered have problems with 245 or 255's [can't remember which]. That is a lot thicker than stock and our wheel wells are not exactly large.

And only a +12mm offset? Aren't stock like a +40mm offset? I seriously doubt those will fit.
 
#8 ·
I have coppertop's last subframe brace that he made in his garage before selling them thru rebel. lemme say...it's pimp!! besides endlinks....its made the most difference in the feel of the front suspension. my car does not lean at all....no bump steer.....and it rides just a lil rougher than stock. besides the aformentioned endlinks and subframe bar...i have progress springs, JS front strut bar, and a bwoody race rear bar. the subframe brace is worth the 130 bucks IMO....i felt the difference pulling it out of my car port right after installing it.
 
#9 ·
XeroState said:
Have you measured to see if you can fit 275's? I know people when lowered have problems with 245 or 255's [can't remember which]. That is a lot thicker than stock and our wheel wells are not exactly large.

And only a +12mm offset? Aren't stock like a +40mm offset? I seriously doubt those will fit.
They'll fit just fine. That's why there's only a 12mm positive offset (yes, theer is a +40mm positive offset for stock tires/wheels).

a 12mm offset, in this case with 10" wide rims, works-out to about a 5.375" of backspacing -- which means there'll be about 1/2" of room between the inside of the tire and the outside of the strut. I don't care about tires rubbing at lock because you never get to lock in an autocross.

The outside doesn't matter and my springs only drop 1.2" up front -- which still leaves about 1.5-1.75" of clearance above the tire -- given the added stiffness of the springs, the decreased roll-rate because of being 1.2" lower, the added rear swaybar, the subframe conectors, I expect to run only about 1.5 degrees of negative front and rear -- and it will smoke. Think roller skate, but with really big sticky rubber.

Don't confuse any of this with any street setup. I use stock wheels and tires on the street (although this car is mostly garaged except when I go out to race) -- this setup is strickly for SCCA DSP autocrossng.

Scott
 
#10 ·
HondaHater said:
I have coppertop's last subframe brace that he made in his garage before selling them thru rebel. lemme say...it's pimp!! besides endlinks....its made the most difference in the feel of the front suspension. my car does not lean at all....no bump steer.....and it rides just a lil rougher than stock. besides the aformentioned endlinks and subframe bar...i have progress springs, JS front strut bar, and a bwoody race rear bar. the subframe brace is worth the 130 bucks IMO....i felt the difference pulling it out of my car port right after installing it.
Sounds perfect! I too have Progress springs, a progress rear swaybar, an SPS from strut bar, Koni adjustables, and the URaceCars Sub-frame connectors.

If I can every find a set of adjustable camber/caster plates (like the Gound Control plates) I can mount to the top of our struts, I'll get them too. I'm sure I can have one of the local race shops fab me something, but I really hate to spend a thousand or more just for that single mod.

Thanks much for the news. Is sounds like we're setup very much alike. Thanks again,

Scott
 
#11 ·
Try getting in touch with Jeremy (coppertop01) on ionforums.net .He's a vendor there and on line over there all the time. You could probably get the cross member from him there. It should do a really nice job combined with the frame connectors. He just got our rails installed and loves them like everyone else does!
 
#12 ·
scottherbert said:
They'll fit just fine. That's why there's only a 12mm positive offset (yes, theer is a +40mm positive offset for stock tires/wheels).

a 12mm offset, in this case with 10" wide rims, works-out to about a 5.375" of backspacing -- which means there'll be about 1/2" of room between the inside of the tire and the outside of the strut. I don't care about tires rubbing at lock because you never get to lock in an autocross.

The outside doesn't matter and my springs only drop 1.2" up front -- which still leaves about 1.5-1.75" of clearance above the tire -- given the added stiffness of the springs, the decreased roll-rate because of being 1.2" lower, the added rear swaybar, the subframe conectors, I expect to run only about 1.5 degrees of negative front and rear -- and it will smoke. Think roller skate, but with really big sticky rubber.

Don't confuse any of this with any street setup. I use stock wheels and tires on the street (although this car is mostly garaged except when I go out to race) -- this setup is strickly for SCCA DSP autocrossng.

Scott
Thats what I really want to do. I will be there in about a season and a half.

I came in second a few weeks ago to a Honda Civic hatch with 285-18 up front and 275-18 in the rear. The car was on rails to say the least

Meanwhile it is SMF with the 225/17 V710's
 
#13 ·
alredline04 said:
Thats what I really want to do. I will be there in about a season and a half.

I came in second a few weeks ago to a Honda Civic hatch with 285-18 up front and 275-18 in the rear. The car was on rails to say the least

Meanwhile it is SMF with the 225/17 V710's
You know the problem, you've seen the competition, you know how much difference more tire can make! All of the serious DSP competition I face runs 275s - I have more horsepower, typically I handle better, I even drive better than most (evidenced by the fact that I can beat all of the local DSP competition, even dramatically under-tired, except for the guys who are likely to win or trophy in Topeka), but I can't get around the extra stick!

Heck, I even beat some of the local DSPs running some really cheap-Charlie Coopers that I had heat-cycled and fried at the 'Fast Forward' driving school about a month ago. I corded my Hoosiers by 10 am the day of the school (stainless steel wire sticking out) and switched over to my cheap Cooper street tires for the rest of the day (225/45x17) -- then my son and I co-drove and raced on the same Coopers the next day since I had no way of getting more race rubber very quickly... And I still beat half of the competition - and I was within a second of the fast-half of the group.

I got the PM, I'll answer later, I've done a lot of thinking about this over the past year.

Scott
 
#14 ·
scottherbert said:
Sounds perfect! I too have Progress springs, a progress rear swaybar, an SPS from strut bar, Koni adjustables, and the URaceCars Sub-frame connectors.

If I can every find a set of adjustable camber/caster plates (like the Gound Control plates) I can mount to the top of our struts, I'll get them too. I'm sure I can have one of the local race shops fab me something, but I really hate to spend a thousand or more just for that single mod.

Thanks much for the news. Is sounds like we're setup very much alike. Thanks again,

Scott
sweet....and yes we are.....just get a set of endlinks with that subframe brace and you're golden handling wise. its awesome!!!
 
#15 ·
Coppertop

Watts-Up said:
Try getting in touch with Jeremy (coppertop01) on ionforums.net .He's a vendor there and on line over there all the time. You could probably get the cross member from him there. It should do a really nice job combined with the frame connectors. He just got our rails installed and loves them like everyone else does!
You're right about Jeremy. His cost to build the front suspension subframe connector is $85 (which includes painting), plus shipping (and he says less than $25 ships about everywhere in the US.) That's substantially less the $129 plus shipping from Canada.

I've also sent Jeremy the SCCA Roll Bar specs and the other 2008 rules details about roll bars for Stock, ST, and Steet Prepared vehicles, because he's talking about building a bolt-in roll bar for the Redline. He already has the NHRA rules. Like everything else, I've read the roll bar rules very, very, very closely. I'm pretty sure that we could have a 'rules-legal' roll bar that wouldn't kill us money-wise.

My basic purpose for having a roll bar goes more to body stiffness than anything else.

Scott
 
#17 · (Edited)
scottherbert said:
You're right about Jeremy. His cost to build the front suspension subframe connector is $85 (which includes painting), plus shipping (and he says less than $25 ships about everywhere in the US.) That's substantially less the $129 plus shipping from Canada.

I've also sent Jeremy the SCCA Roll Bar specs and the other 2008 rules details about roll bars for Stock, ST, and Steet Prepared vehicles, because he's talking about building a bolt-in roll bar for the Redline. He already has the NHRA rules. Like everything else, I've read the roll bar rules very, very, very closely. I'm pretty sure that we could have a 'rules-legal' roll bar that wouldn't kill us money-wise.

My basic purpose for having a roll bar goes more to body stiffness than anything else.

Scott
Nice! Yeah, he was really stoked about our subframe rails having the mounting plates already built in with the design to have a roll bar mounted to them! I figured he would be less expensive, Rebel has to mark the stuff up to get their middle man commission...

We once had plans to build the roll bar, a rear strut tower brace, an engine bay support (that would include the front strut towers, side skirts and core support, and a motor dampening torque link system) and a bunch of other stuff, all constructed from lightweight chromoly... but it just kinda died with the connectors, just not enough redlines, or people that want to buy stuff that doesn't add power. Most just don't get it that if you put what you have to better use, it's better than adding power that you can't get to the ground...
 
#18 ·
subframe brace is wicked....as others have said, I have #2 ever made.

Steering response and feel, is unreal with this bar on.
 
#19 ·
scottherbert said:
Thanks much to everybody for the brainpower and thoughts!

I plan to get one in the near future.

By the way, I've been exchanging emails with the people at http://www.racelinewheels.com/ -- and today they tell me that they can build me a custom wheel that measures 17" x 10" with a 12mm positive offset for $448.00 each. While this isn't cheap, it's the first serious width 5x110, 17" wheels I've found and the prices isn't really terrible. Other custom wheels, if they even make anything in 5x110 have all been more than $600 each.

By the way, with 17x10 wheels, you can easily run Hoosier 275/40s (25.4" diameter/ 9-11" rim/ 10.3" on the ground) or 295/35s (25.3" diameter/ 9.5-11" rim/ 10.8" on the ground), a quick reminder the strock 215/45 has a 24.6" diameter. Which means that a Saturn Ion Redline can be VERY competitive in DSP or even SM...

The biggest problem with the Redline in DSP or SM is that we simply can't get enough tire on the ground to be competitive. An recent SCCA article made the point that if you weren't running 275s in DSP you couldn't be competitive -- somewhat true.

Just thought I'd pass it along.

Scott
Scott, Have you checked out J-Line wheels? A lot of options for the price
 
#22 ·
alredline04 said:
They aren't cheaper, but they aren't that much more expensive

$563 for 17x10's

They don't post the weights
i put j line on a couple of cobalt race cars, nice wheel not too heavy not the lightest, good quality at that price, complete custom wheel rock light and you get what you pay for, but CCW doesn't care about anything less than 19,20 22 etc...these days lol its where the market is yo!:thinkerg:
 
#23 ·
qwikredline11 said:
i put j line on a couple of cobalt race cars, nice wheel not too heavy not the lightest, good quality at that price, complete custom wheel rock light and you get what you pay for, but CCW doesn't care about anything less than 19,20 22 etc...these days lol its where the market is yo!:thinkerg:
I know, I wish I coudl find some simple, light, 5-spoke 16"x 8"/8.5" wheels with about a +25mm offset for around $200 each. . .:(
 
#24 ·
You can - just not in a 5x110, LOL.

Thats funny you called Raceline, Scott - I called them about a week or so before you did asking the same thing. I told him they'd be hearing from a lot of Ion/Cobalt owners in the near future, thanks for making my prediction reality! ALso - the math works even better at a 275/35/17 or 285/35/17 if anyone makes such a thing - those two sizes will mount on a 9" wide rim and are within a millimeter or two of our stock rolling diameter. I'm not going to DSP, probably SMF - either way, I wants rubber down. Also talking to a company in Canada about custom fender flares so I can run those tires with coilovers and not rub the fenders on the tire tread in high speed sweepers and slaloms.
 
#25 ·
Wheels? Tires?

Yes, you're absolutely correct that there aren't any really wide tires that are an exaxt fit, so I've been working from what's available from Hoosier, BFG, etc. The bigger problem, as you know, is wheel sizes.

I've found several, lower cost wheels from tirerack that are 17" x 8", pricing from ~$140-$250, wheels weighing ~21-23 lbs, and the Rial Nogoro, for $170 each, @22 lbs, states that it has a 5 mm offset (with a 5.78" backspacing). The offset/backspacing is the best I've seen. This isn't great, but it's a lot better than the 35-42 mm offset (5.9"-6.2" backspacing) on most of the wheels -- and the 255/40 x 17 BFG R1s specify a wheel width range of 8.5-10.0 inches. Which would mean that the wheel would be within 0.5" of the minimin recommended width spec. Remember, I'm only concerned with wheels and tires to race with. I run 7" rims with 215/45 street tires. And I have a set of 7.5" rims for Hoosier Wets. I've seen the BFGs in 255, a guy with a trailered STI runs them, and they are visibly as wide (perhaps wider on the ground) than the Hoosier 275s).

I'm also not terribly concerned with the tire diameter so long as it's not more than about an inch larger -- the larger diameter reduces the effective torque and I already have issues spinning the front tires under power coming out of tighter corners (and National Tour sites usually have higher-speed courses). When I ran down in San Diego this year with 225/40s, I hit the rev-limiter three times on each run -- had I been geared a bit higher (a larger tire), I could have been faster, with less tire spin, again, faster).

Autocross isn't so much absolute speed or cornering as it is maintaining the 'quickest' run -- you can be slower, but win.

Scott
 
#26 ·
Yes, you're absolutely correct that there aren't any really wide tires that are an exaxt fit, so I've been working from what's available from Hoosier, BFG, etc. The bigger problem, as you know, is wheel sizes.

I've found several, lower cost wheels from tirerack that are 17" x 8", pricing from ~$140-$250, wheels weighing ~21-23 lbs, and the Rial Nogoro, for $170 each, @22 lbs, states that it has a 5 mm offset (with a 5.78" backspacing). The offset/backspacing is the best I've seen. This isn't great, but it's a lot better than the 35-42 mm offset (5.9"-6.2" backspacing) on most of the wheels -- and the 255/40 x 17 BFG R1s specify a wheel width range of 8.5-10.0 inches. Which would mean that the wheel would be within 0.5" of the minimin recommended width spec. Remember, I'm only concerned with wheels and tires to race with. I run 7" rims with 215/45 street tires. And I have a set of 7.5" rims for Hoosier Wets. I've seen the BFGs in 255, a guy with a trailered STI runs them, and they are visibly as wide (perhaps wider on the ground) than the Hoosier 275s).

I'm also not terribly concerned with the tire diameter so long as it's not more than about an inch larger -- the larger diameter reduces the effective torque and I already have issues spinning the front tires under power coming out of tighter corners (and National Tour sites usually have higher-speed courses). When I ran down in San Diego this year with 225/40s, I hit the rev-limiter three times on each run -- had I been geared a bit higher (a larger tire), I could have been faster, with less tire spin, again, faster).

Autocross isn't so much absolute speed or cornering as it is maintaining the 'quickest' run -- you can be slower, but win.

Scott
good point i would advise 245 45 17 Hooosier A6 on 9.5 x 17 27 inch diameter :pinklove:
 
#28 ·
I run Hoosier 245/40/17 on the stock 7" wide wheels when autocrossing. Just had an event this weekend at Nellis AFB in fact - PAX'd 12th of 87 and would've don a helluva lot better if I'd realized my tire pressure guage was broken before my last run, lol. Borrowed someone else's, set the pressures where they shoulda been all day (I'd been scratching my head for hours trying to figure out why no matter how much air I added they were still pushing under) and dropped a full second, lol.

90% of autocross is in 2nd gear for us. You VERY rarely - if ever - have to heel-toe into 1st, even in the tight stuff - we have the torque - even 100% stock like I am - to pull out of a 15 mph pivot cone from 2nd just fine. The 245/40's are within 2mm of stock diameter, will not rub if you can find a 17x7 with a +36mm offset (stock rules allow a .25" difference in offset and 6mm is .4mm short of .25"), they rub slightly near full lock with the stockers at +42mm and no spacers - our studs aren't long enough to run a spacer or I would. With careful throttle modulation I keep wheelspin under control with these tires in 2nd. If you're hitting the limiter in 2nd something's wrong; no national-style course should allow sustained speeds of 64 + mph!
 
#33 ·
Brother, you raced at Nellis or the raceway by Nellis? I'm getting stationed there in January. Maybe we can meet up and drive places. I would love to learn to drive courses. Maybe you can school me....
 
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