Anyone else think this GS drop is bullshit? - Saturn ION RedLine Forums
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-26-2008, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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Anyone else think this GS drop is bullshit?

First -Our car fits the bill perfectly for DS. They keep dropping more and more DS cars down for no good reason becuse they won't move the fucking MCS up.

Second - Becuase of the fucking MCS, GS PAX is going to go up even further next year over DS; so despite being dropped to a "lower" class, we're going to take it in the ass on PAX scores.

Are stock cars allowed to enter a HIGHER class if they want to? If I don't move to STX or SMF, I do NOT want to be in GS and get my ass tromped in Open PAX competition becuase the SEC is smoking crack and getting reach-arounds from Mini owners!!!

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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-27-2008, 09:21 AM
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I believe you can run in a higher class, but I'd have to check the rulebooks on it... I think they're smoking crack as well. The MCS is a decent car, but GS??? Come on... that's right next to HS, for crying out loud.

I'm running in STX currently, so it doesn't affect me anyway... if I could afford real tires, I might have a chance of whipping ass in STX, but for now, I'm basically competing with the DS guys anyway...

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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-28-2008, 10:08 AM
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I don't know. It does not effect me, but I can say that I have beaten Mini's is SM. I don't think our car is out classed in GS.


Aren't classes car or displacement specific? I don't believe you could run in a higher class. My friend ran his Cobalt LS is GS for 2 events and blew the class away, they made him go to his proper HS, where he still wins a ton.

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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-28-2008, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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We shouldnt' be outclassed in GS because we're a DS car, LOL. But GS is actually faster than DS right now because of the MCS. My main bitch is the PAX thing, because if I decide to stay in Stock, I will run Open PAX, and GS will be more than a .2 second penatly over DS on a 60 second course if PAX changes for '09 the way it looks like it will.

Fuck it - I'll just go to SM-F, lol. I was thinking STX, but there are a couple of well driven RX-8's looking to go there from BS in my region and that scares me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaJaguar5
I try and get with as many dudes as possible when I'm out on the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by h4ckler
I miss the days when people weren't emo and just hung themselves instead of bitching on youtube....
RIP "Sally" - Pacific Blue 2005 Ion Redline Comp Pack

14.8 @ 96 mph, 2.3 second 60' - 100% stock on stock tires, 85 degrees out at 2200 ft altitude...

207 whp, 187 wtq, 100% stock uncorrected numbers on a mustang dyno...
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-28-2008, 11:38 AM
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I can see what you mean. I never place higher than 75 in PAX with an average of 150 cars or more. The SM factor kills my PAX.

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-28-2008, 11:50 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, SM PAX is indicative of highly modded Evo's and M3's that win that class, and there's just no way a FWD can hang. Some EF and EG Civic's and the ITR sorta can by virtue of their unequal-length A-arm front suspension and extremely light weight, but only sorta. Since the system is a handicap based on the fastest cars in a given class, you're going to get hammered in PAX in that class. We'll see what becomes of SM-F - I for one am very excited about it!

DS is a very accurate PAX factor for our cars in maxed out stock class trim/tires. The GS PAX is all fucked up - it should be lower than D, not higher. So dropping us to GS becomes a penalty to those who care about PAX. One could say it's fair since the MCS is a DS car anyway; thus we're in the class/PAX that should be indicative - however they haven't bumped it up, and are penalizing us and several other cars to make up for it. Pisses me off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaJaguar5
I try and get with as many dudes as possible when I'm out on the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by h4ckler
I miss the days when people weren't emo and just hung themselves instead of bitching on youtube....
RIP "Sally" - Pacific Blue 2005 Ion Redline Comp Pack

14.8 @ 96 mph, 2.3 second 60' - 100% stock on stock tires, 85 degrees out at 2200 ft altitude...

207 whp, 187 wtq, 100% stock uncorrected numbers on a mustang dyno...
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-29-2008, 05:01 AM
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Greek, Greek, and more Greek. Dammit....speak English! I know you're talking of something to the effect of Auto X. Take this opportunity to tech some of us Auto X newbies.

I couldn't hear what I was typing cuz I got an F-16 launching right now.....
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-29-2008, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
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Greek, Greek, and more Greek. Dammit....speak English! I know you're talking of something to the effect of Auto X. Take this opportunity to tech some of us Auto X newbies.

I couldn't hear what I was typing cuz I got an F-16 launching right now.....
DS,GS,HS,SM,SM-F are all classes for cars in Auto-X. MCS = Mini Copper S, PAX is a modified RAW time that you can use to compair your runs against other classes and cars.

What else do you want to know?

If I get used to envying others those parts of myself that I am proud of will recede from me.
-Stellvia


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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-29-2008, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Ion View Post
Greek, Greek, and more Greek. Dammit....speak English! I know you're talking of something to the effect of Auto X. Take this opportunity to tech some of us Auto X newbies.

I couldn't hear what I was typing cuz I got an F-16 launching right now.....
Fair enough:

Funky's Auto-X Primer Course (and classing basics)
Most people have at least heard of Autocrossing. It's a precision driving competition, where a course is laid out with traffic cones, and the point is to drive the course as quickly as possible without hitting any cones.
In SCCA Autocross (also called Solo-II) if you knock over a cone, it adds a penalty to your time.

Rules for SCCA Autocross can be found HERE.

The discussion about classes and cars is an ongoing one. Basically, cars are grouped by 1. Level of modification, and 2. Engine size/car size.

The main groups of classes are:
1. Stock
2. Street Prepared
3. Prepared
4. Modified
5. Street Touring/Street Modified

Let's start with stock, since it's the easiest. Allowed mods in "Stock" classes are:

Removal of spare tire and tools
Front anti-roll bar(s)
Suspension/wheel alignment using standard adjustments
High-performance DOT tires (including competition R-compounds)
Shock absorbers/struts (2 external adjustments maximum)
Competition-type seat belts (no shoulder belts in open cars)
Brake linings (pads/shoes)
Air filter element (the “throw-away” part)
“Cat”-back exhaust systems
Wheels of standard size (diameter, width, and offset within ¼”)
Roll bar/cage
Gauges, indicator lights, etc.

Within "Stock" there are sub-groups basied on engine size, etc.
So "SS" or Super-Stock cars will be the fastest, and H-Stock would be the slowest. Just to give you an idea, DS is the second lowest.

The Ion Red Line falls into D-Stock, along with the RX-8, Audi S4, BMW 330ci, Caddy CTS, Neon SRT-4, Talon AWD, and a few others.

The main difference between the "Touring" classes and the rest are tires... you have to use DOT street tires with a certain treadwear rating. All other classes can use R-compounds, which is a huge advantage, and also a huge cost for extra wheels and tires.

I run in Street Touring X (STX) because I can't afford sticky tires, but my tranny mounts bump me out of the Stock group. As you go through the groups, they allow more modifications, and it gets harder to compete. Something simple like a pulley change (and nothing else) would bump me into Street Modified, where there are full-blown monsters lurking... I wouldn't have a chance. So the trick is to modify your car to the limit of what the class will allow, and you'll be competitive.


PAX Index
Now, the fun part. The SCCA has a nifty little thing called the PAX index, which is a rough way to compare cars between classes using a multiplier.

In theory, A-Modified cars are the fastest, and everything else is compared to them by a PAX multiplier. An AM cars pax is always a factor of 1 (one) and let's say they run a course in 1 minute (60 seconds). It would take a DS car 90 seconds to make the same run, so my PAX index would be 0.66 so that once you applied the multiplier, they would in theory be equal.

This way, a 60-second run in a fast car is equal to a 90-second run in a slower car. According to what class they're in, they get different multipliers (based on the class's averages at Nationals) and can actually win the entire meet with a slow car if they drive well and are in a class with a very good (low) PAX multiplier. See where this is going?

So what happens if a certain type of car is put into a class that it clearly will dominate? Slower classes have better PAX numbers, and if the car is already faster than all the other cars in it's class, then they can easily beat everybody there with a PAX multiplier that is too low for their car. It is considered an unfair advantage.

On the flip side, guys who have medium-fast cars (like us) don't want to be put into a class full of faster cars, because then we'd have no chance of being competitive.

How does this affect me?
Well, look at it this way: the SCCA just officially moved the Cobalt SS (which should include us as well) from DS to GS. What does that mean?

DS Pax is 0.812, and GS Pax is 0.815 So that means on a 60-second run in DS your adjusted time would be 48.72 seconds, and in GS it would be 48.9 seconds... you'd have to run .2 seconds faster to place in the same spot. Not a big deal, right? I agree... but when you get into the Touring classes, it gets interesting.

Let's say, the options for my car are DS, STX, DSP, or SM. I can modify it to meet any of those classes. Here's the Pax indexes:
DS = 0.812
STX = 0.820
DSP = 0.843
SM = 0.860

So stock, my car can run let's say a course in 60 seconds, on Street tires.
In STX, I can run any wheel-tire combo as long as it's street tires. I would have to run a 59.4 in STX to beat my time in DS.
That's doable, I think I could pick up .6 with some mods, probably more, which means it would be better to go to STX.

What about DSP? I would have to run a 57.8 to beat my time in DS. Still, with R-comp tires allowed, it's doable. DSP also allows upgraded intercoolers, injectors, and tuning, but NOT pulleys. With R-comps I could cut 2.2 seconds, no problem. Still a good move, if you can afford the tires and extra wheels.

What about SM? I'd have to run a 56.6 to beat my time in DS. However, in SM, almost anything is allowed... this should be easy to cut 3.4 seconds with a heavily modified car. The question is, however, what other cars are in that class that you will have to beat? And what if the Pax changes next year (which it will)?

For instance, last year, DS was 0.804 and GS was 0.803, almost even. This year, DS is 0.812 and GS is 0.815 which means if your car gets bumped into GS (like the Cobalt SS) then you'll have to run faster than last year to keep up. Not to mention, they're both noticably worse than last year... even if you stay in the same class, you'll have to run faster!


Hopefully this made some sense (to those who read it all) and clears a few things up.

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"Non-Performance-Owned Redline Rehabilitation Team" - Founder
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-29-2008, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyStickman View Post
Fair enough:

Funky's Auto-X Primer Course (and classing basics)
Most people have at least heard of Autocrossing. It's a precision driving competition, where a course is laid out with traffic cones, and the point is to drive the course as quickly as possible without hitting any cones.
In SCCA Autocross (also called Solo-II) if you knock over a cone, it adds a penalty to your time.

Rules for SCCA Autocross can be found HERE.

The discussion about classes and cars is an ongoing one. Basically, cars are grouped by 1. Level of modification, and 2. Engine size/car size.

The main groups of classes are:
1. Stock
2. Street Prepared
3. Prepared
4. Modified
5. Street Touring/Street Modified

Let's start with stock, since it's the easiest. Allowed mods in "Stock" classes are:

Removal of spare tire and tools
Front anti-roll bar(s)
Suspension/wheel alignment using standard adjustments
High-performance DOT tires (including competition R-compounds)
Shock absorbers/struts (2 external adjustments maximum)
Competition-type seat belts (no shoulder belts in open cars)
Brake linings (pads/shoes)
Air filter element (the “throw-away” part)
“Cat”-back exhaust systems
Wheels of standard size (diameter, width, and offset within ¼”)
Roll bar/cage
Gauges, indicator lights, etc.

Within "Stock" there are sub-groups basied on engine size, etc.
So "SS" or Super-Stock cars will be the fastest, and H-Stock would be the slowest. Just to give you an idea, DS is the second lowest.

The Ion Red Line falls into D-Stock, along with the RX-8, Audi S4, BMW 330ci, Caddy CTS, Neon SRT-4, Talon AWD, and a few others.

The main difference between the "Touring" classes and the rest are tires... you have to use DOT street tires with a certain treadwear rating. All other classes can use R-compounds, which is a huge advantage, and also a huge cost for extra wheels and tires.

I run in Street Touring X (STX) because I can't afford sticky tires, but my tranny mounts bump me out of the Stock group. As you go through the groups, they allow more modifications, and it gets harder to compete. Something simple like a pulley change (and nothing else) would bump me into Street Modified, where there are full-blown monsters lurking... I wouldn't have a chance. So the trick is to modify your car to the limit of what the class will allow, and you'll be competitive.


PAX Index
Now, the fun part. The SCCA has a nifty little thing called the PAX index, which is a rough way to compare cars between classes using a multiplier.

In theory, A-Modified cars are the fastest, and everything else is compared to them by a PAX multiplier. An AM cars pax is always a factor of 1 (one) and let's say they run a course in 1 minute (60 seconds). It would take a DS car 90 seconds to make the same run, so my PAX index would be 0.66 so that once you applied the multiplier, they would in theory be equal.

This way, a 60-second run in a fast car is equal to a 90-second run in a slower car. According to what class they're in, they get different multipliers (based on the class's averages at Nationals) and can actually win the entire meet with a slow car if they drive well and are in a class with a very good (low) PAX multiplier. See where this is going?

So what happens if a certain type of car is put into a class that it clearly will dominate? Slower classes have better PAX numbers, and if the car is already faster than all the other cars in it's class, then they can easily beat everybody there with a PAX multiplier that is too low for their car. It is considered an unfair advantage.

On the flip side, guys who have medium-fast cars (like us) don't want to be put into a class full of faster cars, because then we'd have no chance of being competitive.

How does this affect me?
Well, look at it this way: the SCCA just officially moved the Cobalt SS (which should include us as well) from DS to GS. What does that mean?

DS Pax is 0.812, and GS Pax is 0.815 So that means on a 60-second run in DS your adjusted time would be 48.72 seconds, and in GS it would be 48.9 seconds... you'd have to run .2 seconds faster to place in the same spot. Not a big deal, right? I agree... but when you get into the Touring classes, it gets interesting.

Let's say, the options for my car are DS, STX, DSP, or SM. I can modify it to meet any of those classes. Here's the Pax indexes:
DS = 0.812
STX = 0.820
DSP = 0.843
SM = 0.860

So stock, my car can run let's say a course in 60 seconds, on Street tires.
In STX, I can run any wheel-tire combo as long as it's street tires. I would have to run a 59.4 in STX to beat my time in DS.
That's doable, I think I could pick up .6 with some mods, probably more, which means it would be better to go to STX.

What about DSP? I would have to run a 57.8 to beat my time in DS. Still, with R-comp tires allowed, it's doable. DSP also allows upgraded intercoolers, injectors, and tuning, but NOT pulleys. With R-comps I could cut 2.2 seconds, no problem. Still a good move, if you can afford the tires and extra wheels.

What about SM? I'd have to run a 56.6 to beat my time in DS. However, in SM, almost anything is allowed... this should be easy to cut 3.4 seconds with a heavily modified car. The question is, however, what other cars are in that class that you will have to beat? And what if the Pax changes next year (which it will)?

For instance, last year, DS was 0.804 and GS was 0.803, almost even. This year, DS is 0.812 and GS is 0.815 which means if your car gets bumped into GS (like the Cobalt SS) then you'll have to run faster than last year to keep up. Not to mention, they're both noticably worse than last year... even if you stay in the same class, you'll have to run faster!


Hopefully this made some sense (to those who read it all) and clears a few things up.
Great job of defining everything clearly!

You have just explained my reasoning for moving from the current DS up to DSP. Based on my assessment of the dollars involved to modify/upgrade my LSD equipped, already-as-far-as-I-can-go-in-stock Redline, the relative likelyhood that I can be competitive in DSP vs SM vs DS/GS, I've decided that DSP is a better option than either DS (GS with the Minicoopers) or SM (or even SMF). I should add the I've already gotten the 'official' DSP classing for the Redline from SCCA, so I can avoid the old SP class issues some people have had.

Scott
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