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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
does anyone know what vin #'s have the PCM recorder in them. i just got done talking with a manager at my local dealer and he said that some have a pcm recorder and if it shows negative results that it could void some warranty????????????????? help i want to go to sac raceway but i dont need the chance of something voiding. :confused: :confused:
 

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ALL modern cars record the last "n" seconds of critical data. A black box of sorts for a car. The legallity of using such information, either by a manufacturer or law enforcement, without the legal permission to do so, is questionable at best. I wouldn't worry about it. But, if you REALLY don't want to risk the warranty, don't race.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
n" seconds????
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
so are you saying that they have to ask me to look in the pcm to see if there has been foul play and if i say no can they still void whatever part of the warranty that i need or is it not up to me for them to look?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
also how can you clear the pcm or does the dealship do that?
 

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i thought it only stored data at the moment your air bags are deployed.

speed, rpm, breaking ect..

however a kid i know in a 03 rsx type s blew his motor and davis acura, during there "were not fixing this under warranty" speach they had a print out showing his exact rpm as his motor shot codes.

he said you reved this thing to over 9,000 rpms... he asked about a rev limiter, and the service guy said if you downshift from 5th to 2nd no rev limiter can help you. it was a nasty battle and long story short he had to put in the engine himself. oddly enough a year later the dealership warrantied his syncros twice, apparently he went in the shop like a raving ass hole and they didnt even want to cover his car, now that hes nicer to them, they fix his tranny.

crazy stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
ohhhhhh ok now wait so ............. if i go to the drags tonight and say everythings fine afterwards then say tomarrow im driving reg and something happens will it just show the rpms, etc at that time or the night before.
 

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Not true at all...

"The legallity of using such information, either by a manufacturer or law enforcement, without the legal permission to do so, is questionable at best. "

It's THEIR information, not yours. They can do what they want with it, and with OBD-II, they can read rpms and engine performance all the way back to 300 starts or more, depending on the system.

Yes, if you drag race, they can tell, and they can void the hell out of yoru warranty. You can thank the EPA for that, by the way...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
even if it is at the tracks? if so is it even worth it? cuz my whole dream was to race so not being able to do this b/c of the god damn epa is gayer than all hell.
 

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even if it is at the tracks? what does that matter - if you've dogged your car in the last 300 starts (think of how many times you start your car per day, then divide into 300 for the real time in days/months)...they'll know it. And they have a right to know it, it's right in your manual.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
how long does the car have to be running to count as a start, just start then off or like 5 min 10 min a mile couple miles??
 

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A start is a start - a key cycle where the engine starts. Also, if you do 300 key cycles, they'll know something's up....
 

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Ok, it's not the freakin EPA... for gods sake... that's a different arguement though... they didn't decide to use the information to void warranties at the very least, that's your car companies idea.

If you don't want to void a warranty, don't race. If you don't break something you have no problems. The car is pretty overbuilt, so if you break something, you're doing something wrong. VERY wrong. Go slower first, then go faster. Short shift at the drag strip rather than hitting the limiter. Take a corner slower on a road course rather than letting your car understeer off the track. Get my drift? It's one thing if you blow your engine or snap your axles. If your clutch goes, it's your own problem anyway. These things are going to be obvious to the dealer that you're been 'racing' in some form. Most of the things that are going to get messed up racing in an amatuer contest, are things that would wear without warrany coverage anyway. Things like a bad fuel injector, or faulty fuel pump, window motors that don't work, power steering shorts out, things like that... are still going to be covered... see where I'm going with this?
 

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The last "n" seconds of critical data means the last several seconds of data. "n" stands for a undetermined or variable amount of time. The buffer is small so the data gets overwritten eventually. The legallity of using this data to rebuff a warranty claim has yet to be proven in a court of law. SOmeone made the post esariler in the tread that the data is "theirs" (meaning GM's). Not true. The need the data for diagnostics but they are limited to using it for that purpose.

And Spooner's points are well made. You guys that race have more to worry about then the PCM recording info. GM and every other company know what abuse looks like to most every component. Their was a kid on the forum (I forgot who) that complained Saturn would not replace a clutch under warranty. He then posted pics of the clutch . . .WOW! It was fried!. Obvious "driver error".

Don't want to get in that position- don't race. If you do race, enjoy the ride but assume the risk. Simple as that.
 

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Jim Lewis said:
Not true at all...

"The legallity of using such information, either by a manufacturer or law enforcement, without the legal permission to do so, is questionable at best. "

It's THEIR information, not yours. They can do what they want with it, and with OBD-II, they can read rpms and engine performance all the way back to 300 starts or more, depending on the system.
That I'm not sure of now. I had heard a similar thing, but it was for 250 starts and posted such on this board. Our redisent guru of technical underpinnings, Mr *** On Tour, came back and replied that there is no such recording going on in our PCMs, that as stated there is around 60 sec of data that can be retrieved in ewvent of a crash. The dude in FL that killed a person in a MVA in his Trans Am was convicted by such info. He claimed he was going only 45 mph in a 35, but the box showed that the car was going over 75 mph and the rpm were up there to match and the throttle position sensor was at WOT just seconds before impact.
 

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Blu_Redline said:
That I'm not sure of now. I had heard a similar thing, but it was for 250 starts and posted such on this board. Our redisent guru of technical underpinnings, Mr *** On Tour, came back and replied that there is no such recording going on in our PCMs, that as stated there is around 60 sec of data that can be retrieved in ewvent of a crash. The dude in FL that killed a person in a MVA in his Trans Am was convicted by such info. He claimed he was going only 45 mph in a 35, but the box showed that the car was going over 75 mph and the rpm were up there to match and the throttle position sensor was at WOT just seconds before impact.

Which is not being recorded? The crash data, or the last 250 (or so) starts?
 

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You guys are talking about 2 different "recorders"

1. Yes your car contains an "Event Data Recorder" built into the airbag control module (SDM) that will record various pieces of useful data -throttle position, vehicle speed sensor output,engine RPM and brake switch status for approx 5 seconds prior to the deployment of the airbags. There is few other pieces of data as well such as your Delta V/Delta T (acceleration) during the crash event, seatbelt status and few other tidbits.
In most States and Canada the "registered owner" of the vehicle has rightfult ownership of the data, and it can only be extracted as either part of a warrant or evidence seizure in a criminal investigation, or if permission has been granted through some contract or other writ of permission/access.

2. Certain engine data recording is required by OBDII legislation.Commonly referred to as a Freeze Frame (FF)- this is a single "frame" of data of a dozen or so engine parameters that existed the instant your MIL (check engine light) was commanded ON. This FF data is required to be recorded in all cars sold into the North American market, in order to remain in compliance with the EPA OBDII and other U.S.A./Canadian Federal Emissions requirements.It is designed to assist the techncian in recreating the conditions that existed when a DTC failed and turned ON the MIL. Most GM cars and trucks also record a Fail Record (FR) that records engine data parameters any time a DTC diagnostic fails (not just when the MIL was illuminated) and updates the data on each subsequent failure, so that FR will always represent the conditions that existed the LAST time a DTC failed.
The FF and FR files are erased when the DTC is cleared with a suitable scan tool OR after 40 "warm-up cycles" without further fail, the history DTC and related FF/FR will automatically be cleared.


Now there may be (depending on the ECM/PCM) a few other "time or event bound" data paramters that are not really "recordings" but are actually counters. These include things like "KMs accumulated since the MIL was illuminated", or "KMs since Engine Oil Life reached 0%" and ignition cycle counters for a myriad of things. But to the best of my knowledge there is no "tattle-tale" type recordings that could indicate you were racing, or even abusing your car. Certain conditions might arise that the system would PREVENT you from abusing your powertrain aka "REDUCED POWER" mode, but like I said- After working with OBDII vehicles extensively every day since 1985, I personally have NEVER seen anything delivered by the TECH2 that could incriminate the driver for any "on-road" abuse. That doesnt mean that it couldnt possibly exist, but I can tell you if such data does exist, it isnt able to be extracted at the dealership level.

Hope this helps clarify
Regards
WopOnTour

PS> If you would like more information on the EDR and what it records, check out the powerpoint slideshow on the Vetronix web-site
http://www.vetronix.com/diagnostics/cdr/index.html
 

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1885! Good god man... he even figured out the wiring to defeat time! ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
thanks ***. ur like a damn book of knowelege huh? how big is ur head. lol jp
 
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