[SporkLover]

So has anyone actively looked into a supercharger swap? The 1600 Series Whipple Superchargers exterior wise is close to a M62. The problem comes down to which 1600 to pick.... there are four models and they have different mounting styles. For the most part Whipple has a direct bolt-on replacement for almost all types of eaton superchargers... so there are several different styles of mounts, outlet design... etc etc... so that i one chose to replace their crappy Eaton.. they could just bolt on a Whipple.

On a L67, the direct bolt in replacement for the M90 is a 2300AX. There was some testing done with a 97 GTP that was bone stock except the 2300AX. The outlet discharge temps were 50-80 degrees cooler at the same boost levels of the M90... and overall it added 60hp to the car. This was at stock levels of boost. The L67 is a non-intercooled engine..... it makes me salivate at the thoughts of what kind of gains are possible on the Intercooled 2.0L.

The 1600 series has a .5L addtional displacement over the M62 so that means good things as far as how fast the supercharger has to spin to make stock levels of boost. It wont have to spin as fast.... so that will lessen the amount of parasitic drag, as well as the outlet discharge temps.

The only problems I forsee is a means of boost bypass, and finding the limits of the stock fuel system. How does the Ecotec measure air? Through a MAF, or Speed Density? Hopefully a MAF. I wonder if the stock PCM has the maps to supporting 5 or 6 psi more boost.

I am awaiting a reply from eaton on the exact model of M62 that is on the Ion Redline, so I can ask Whipple which 1600 model to go with... and ask one of their techs if the stock boot bypass system will work with a 1600 series whipple. Maybe they have a means of seperate boost bypass so that when you let off the throttle you dump boost (like in a turbo car).... that way you don't have to worry about your stock PCM taking boost away when you dont want it to.

The other problem is..... I'm still searching for an Ion Redline to purchase so I can try this out, I am pretty close, I found an 04 for around 17k after rebates.

Im pretty familiar with GM supercharged engines, as my previous car was a GTP. My current car is an SRT-4 What a pair that would be.... an SRT-4 and a RedLine. I have to make sure that the Redline is never faster than my SRT-4 of course...so a EVO III 16g Turbo swap is being peiced together for it first!

 

[Vita]

i was actually looking into the 2300 series, here is where i was looking, and it looks like the AX series is the one that would be best suited, as the inlet is opposite the snout, while the AR has a top mount. that also is interesting though, as if you got the top mount, you could hook up a ram air setup that wouldn't have any bends in the intake system, only problem is the maf sensor, but something could be fabricated.

i've done a lot of thinking on this, and i've also wondered if the rotors could be swapped out of the 1600 and into the m62! i know that the lysholm blowers are now owned/made by eaton, so i've been thinking the casings are the same, or very similar, as you stated with similar mounting points, so i figure if you found the blower to be a direct swap, then you found the blower with the swappable rotors, and that could be cheaper than buying the whole unit, and have the stock look!


i am very interested in what you find out about which blower has the direct mounting points, please let me know if you find one!

 

[SporkLover]

The 2300 Series seems a bit large. It would actually require an adapter plate... and a whole bunch of other changes.

MAf sensor shouldnt be a problem. GM has a nice parts bin to pull from. I wonder if a TB/MAF assembly from a L67 (GTP) would be suitable.

 

[goofyguy]

i like where this thread is going. I would like to see a rotor swap instead of a whole unit myself. What information is needed to know what can and will be done. Who should I be calling tell me I will help out. I see with a change in the entire unit you would need an adapter for the trottle body and so on. but a rotor swap would be easy and no adaptation needed

 

[SporkLover]

I think with a rotor swap you will need to change the nose drive as well.

If you use a 1600 series Whipple then you wont need an adapter plate. If you use a 2300AX you will definitely need a plate. A 1600 would be a better fitting unit IMO. 2300AX is extreme.

 

[AtomSky]

Few things:
Last time I checked there were 3 MAP sensors on the vehicle and a MAF.
1. A MAP on the top of the S/C above the bypass valve
2. A MAP on the #1 Cylinder intake port.
3. A MAP on a bracket below the diaphragm of the bypass near the oil filter coming from the block.
4. The MAF between the air box and intake pipe to the blower.

That's Ambient, Manifold before and Manifold after the rotors along with Mass Air Flow entering the system by way of the MAF sensor or something like that.

Someone who owns a RL and has 40 minutes to play around can unbolt each one and post the Bosch part numbers for each and I'll tell you the range, what it does and why. (include the MAF too)

On to the blower.

A Roots positive displacement blower rotates the opposite direction of a twin screw blower. The Eaton traps air in the lobes and it travels around the outside of the rotor using the body of the blower as the seal for the air trapped in the valley of the rotor.
A Twin screw positive displacement blower takes air in one end and as the screws mesh the chamber the air is trapped in decreases in size compressing it until it's expelled out the other end.

Just swapping out rotors for screws wont work without also swapping out the neck for proper gearing. Plus I don't think that it's that simple because the housings may look about the same, but they are different internally.


The Generation of the M62 Supercharger on the LSJ motor is the latest model available and 60% more efficient than even previous generations. It's so new that it's only used on the LSJ motor at this time and while it's not as performance worthy as the screw blower it's much better than anything Eaton has offered in the past.

The cost involved in the replacing of the blower for that of a screw would be not worth it in my opinion. I wouldn't even contemplate the act of just trying to fit it with a M90 version either because the hassle would cost more than the final result.
The only reliable option for more power on the RL is to stick with what is available and upgrade from there. Header is a good start and down the line either pull the blower off completely and swap in a Turbo or just throw a Turbo on top of the blower.

Do you know that if you picked up a T3/T4 turbo for $350 anywhere it would be prefect for this motor. Even a streight T4 would be fine if you wanted big power potential. All the crying about It takes too long to spool up. would be silenced because the supercharger is taking care of the low end and the Turbo the top end.

$350 for a Turbo
$400 for a log manifold
$200 for pipes
$350 for a small FM intercooler
$100 for odds and ends
------------------------------
Under $1500 and you are boosting 300 HP through your RL

Let the blower bypass open at RPM's ramp up. Who cares, it's just another route for the Turbo to get to the engine quicker.

Personally that's the way I would go and address limits of the system later. If you max out the MAF then it will set a DTC and you can use a S AFC or other known MAF controler to clamp the signal and take care of any fuel needs.
Maybe by the time someone has the balls to do this the few parties that are offering PCM mods will be ready and all the answers will be available.

 

[SporkLover]

A super/turbo charger system in theory is good... but it's much harder than you make it seem. Throttle body would definitely be an issue. Either a mid sized turbo, or a better blower is a better route.

The Whipple would be a direct bolt in and less of a hassle as far as tuning and time goes. And you can have a 1600 Series for 1640 from whipple. As long as you don't max out the MAF and fuel system you should be set.

As far as the M62 goes. How does Eaton measure it's efficiency? And in what range of operation sees that efficiency? When i hear that it's 60% more efficient, Im assuming they mean mechanical efficiency, meaning it does build up as much heat. Thats great... but it's still a roots blower and it has it's limits. The GTP guys are quickly finding the limits of their m90's... and it pretty much can't propel them out of the 12's... they are resorting to other means of Forced induction. If you just want to mildly tune your Redline... well sure stick with the M62... but if you are serious about power... it will be pulled off eventually. A turbo is a good option... but the tuning involved with a turbo system will quickly drive up the costs.... not too mention all of the custom pieces that will be required. A Whipple will cost about as much as the parts required for a turbo... but since it is a supercharger... minimal tuning will be required.... basically all thats needed is to ensure you dont max out the air metering system and fuel system.

 

[AtomSky]

I have been twincharging motors for a long time and already built 2 systems that are sitting at the shop to twincharge the LSJ. This is part of the reason why I have to sell the headers now because I owe the welder $$ for the work they did for the SEMA vehicles that I fronted, but that's anther issue.

It really is a simple task and everyone tries to make it more complex than it really is.

MIND YOU I agree 100% that a Whipple swap would be hands down the simplest solution to go with, but screw superchargers are illegal in about every sport compact drag race series including NHRA. And that sucks!

 

[goofyguy]

so I have your header on the way soon and now your talkin bout a twins kit with a turbo setup. how much will that be !!!!

 

[AtomSky]

Shooting for everything in the kit for under $3000 if possible.
If the PCM mod pans out then; for sure, but if not then it will be close.

 

[Redlinekid_04]

id like to have a header if there is any left. Ill pay the dough for some extra go.

 

[SporkLover]

I have been twincharging motors for a long time and already built 2 systems that are sitting at the shop to twincharge the LSJ. This is part of the reason why I have to sell the headers now because I owe the welder $$ for the work they did for the SEMA vehicles that I fronted, but that's anther issue.

It really is a simple task and everyone tries to make it more complex than it really is.

MIND YOU I agree 100% that a Whipple swap would be hands down the simplest solution to go with, but screw superchargers are illegal in about every sport compact drag race series including NHRA. And that sucks!

Well you are one of the few that are twin charging I have seen it done before, and it has presented a tuning problem to some. In I have seen info about a 2.3L Turbo /supercharged TBird on the net... and it put down some impressive times (10 second runs). Really all you need is a soelinoid(Sp?) to open the boost bypass on the Supercharger all the way once the turbo hits full boost.... and that should be around 3k rpms. In theory it gives you a nice usable power band from Idle to redline.

I'm interested in seeing how everything is routed through the intercooler / TB, Placement of Turbo wastegate and BOV. Once it's all finished make sure to post your results

NHRA sucks as a whole. They are sooo slow to adopt technology that will progress the sport... just cause big money teams whine. For the longest time Turbos weren't allowed... and finally they are. hopefully roots will go they way of the dinosaurs and they will let Screws in. I really wanna see a run what ya brung class.....

 

[AtomSky]

Really all you need is a soelinoid(Sp?) to open the boost bypass on the Supercharger all the way once the turbo hits full boost

How do you think the RL already controls/limits boost?
It's not located here in the production models, but check out the LSJ motor image.

That long psi/vac line that goes from the #1 Cylinder to the connector (soeliniod) by the logo plack and on to the bottom of the diaphragm of the bypass valve is the KEY detail.

The Latest RL models I have seen now have a MAP sensor at the #1 cylinder and that soeliniod is located between the engine and PCM area.

BUT at any rate when manifold pressure is equal to charge pipe pressure then the supercharger is generating ZERO heat, using ZERO HP and just along for the ride.

 

[ArrivalBlueSS]

BUT at any rate when manifold pressure is equal to charge pipe pressure then the supercharger is generating ZERO heat, using ZERO HP and just along for the ride.

You are so wrong the supercharger is using like 1/3 of a HP when the bypass valve is open.

 

[Blue04RedLine]

You are so wrong the supercharger is using like 1/3 of a HP when the bypass valve is open.

Why did you pull this back up to say that??

 

[goofyguy]

You are so wrong the supercharger is using like 1/3 of a HP when the bypass valve is open.

correct the supercharger uses no power when not in boost at highway speeds. As for a supercharger swap there a lot to consider. Size of the new unit, throttle body plate, intercooler adapter, snout length, pulley size and output of the new unit, and tuning.

 

[ArrivalBlueSS]

Why did you pull this back up to say that??

Hmm I thought this was a newer thread , it was on page 1 for me. Weirdness...

EDIT: I remember I was doing a google search and got this thread so I posted in it without even checking dates...