[redlineRACER]

if the twin-charger concept does eventually become produced..would it be wise to install in our redlines..i know it will almost definetly void our warranties...but is turbo smart to put in our cars?...isnt turbo bad for your car especially in the long run?..it seems like this would put a lot of strain on the engine, transmission, etc...would we have to get new cams, pistons, etc...because the boost mod, other mods, plus turbo...a lot of horse and torque...could our cars handle this..if so for how long . how much horse and torque do you think the twincharger would add, how would or 0-60, 1/8th mile, 1/4 mile times be affected...dont get me wrong i want more performance out of the redline bad, but i am worried what will happen in the long run...and is there any new info on this kit???...

 

[Sp00ner]

if the twin-charger concept does eventually become produced..would it be wise to install in our redlines..i know it will almost definetly void our warranties...but is turbo smart to put in our cars?...isnt turbo bad for your car especially in the long run?..it seems like this would put a lot of strain on the engine, transmission, etc...would we have to get new cams, pistons, etc...because the boost mod, other mods, plus turbo...a lot of horse and torque...could our cars handle this..if so for how long . how much horse and torque do you think the twincharger would add, how would or 0-60, 1/8th mile, 1/4 mile times be affected...dont get me wrong i want more performance out of the redline bad, but i am worried what will happen in the long run...and is there any new info on this kit???...

There's nothing worse about adding a turbo than a supercharger. Inside the engine it has no idea what is hooked up to it. If the engine can handle the boost, it can handle the boost. As long as you're not running 40lbs of boost, and driving like a maniac, you should be fine. Will it be harder on the car? Yes. So is adding an exhaust, intake, turning up the boost on the supercharger, etc. Anything that gets more air/fuel into the engine is adding stress, this engine is built to handle stress and lots of it. With regards to engine life and turbos, the turbo will give out long before the engine does, if you abuse it. In terms of power, it just depends on how much boost you're running with the system.

 

[redlineRACER]

with the boost upgrade, headers, intake, cat back what will our gas mileage be like? what about after the twincharger? will the boost control help get us better gas mileage?

 

[haunter]

no, you will make much more HP, will will require much more fuel

however in general the intake header catback should improve gas mileage a bit

 

[gm3saturn]

Keep in mind that all methods of forced induction are nothing more then complex intake systems. because of that with the proper fuel being added (haveing the corect air/fuel ratio) your engine will never know the difference in terms of ware and tear.

 

[myredline]

The only other thing is heat. Turbos produce way more heat than a supercharger. So when they do the twin set up they will need to have a lot better cooling not just a better intercooler.

 

[Sp00ner]

The only other thing is heat. Turbos produce way more heat than a supercharger. So when they do the twin set up they will need to have a lot better cooling not just a better intercooler.

I 'know' GM already has a part number for a new aftercooler, you could also intercool the turbo seperate of the supercharger. I know that's a lot of piping, but it's possible. Not to mention that you really don't have both making full boost at the same time. Plus, if you get enough boost, you can still make power, as long as it overcomes the effect of heat. Look at the GrandPrixs, they don't even intercool them, just blow hot air into the manifold. Supposedly the Laminova aftercooler that we have is supposed to be a very good design. The cooling system of the car should be more than adequate for quite a while, the aftercooler could use an upgrade with a turbo slapped onto the supercharger, but I'm not sure it would be required to get it to run right.

 

[myredline]

I'm used to my MR2 which is running about 20lbs and makes enough heat to melt the paint.

 

[Sp00ner]

I'm used to my MR2 which is running about 20lbs and makes enough heat to melt the paint.

Oh I think the twincharger would be pretty warm! I just don't know anything about after/intercoolers. I keep hearing that the one we have is very good, unless you ask someone into turbos, then an Air-to-Air one is the only one they will talk about. I wish I knew what the intake charge temp is now. As long as you keep the heat reasonable, you will make more power regardless. You might be able to make more power with a cooler charge, but you'd still be making a pretty decent gain either way. As long as the charge dosen't get so hot that detonation starts popping up, I think all would be fine.

 

[Redline686]

Question about twin charging

I've heard of twin-turbos and even twin super chargers on some old mercedes but a combonation? To me the only way possible is if 2 of the cylinders ran on super and the others on turbo. If you flow the compressed air from the turbo charger directly into the supercharger, it wouldn't be able to compress it anymore unless it were spinning at like 40,000 rpms (it would be long exploded by then anyway). I just have a hard time believing that the M62 on our cars could compress a charge even more. To use a metaphor, wouldn't it be like you (the supercharger) try to spin a marry-go-round thats going fast than your hand? Tell me if i have a valid point or i just have down syndrome.

 

[urbanmonkeygod04]

I think the concept of a twin-charger is extremely difficult, just like Redline686 stated. But hang on, here's my dad! I'll ask him! (he's an engineer at GM)

But his response? "I don't know. Boost is boost; you can either have a little compressed air or a lot." So basically, all you're doing is putting MORE boost through the engine; it's the same as turning a boost controller from 4 to 8 psi. Another point he brought up is to look at jet engines; they're basically big turbochargers with a combustion chamber in the middle. It's feasible, but you'd have to modify the way that the supercharger compresses the already-compressed air. He drew out a big diagram that I can't make.

He's an engineer, I'm a film student, so I don't really grasp it perfectly.

To sum it up: twin charging is inefficient; just turn up the boost on the F.I. you've already got! Not to mention, a turbo & a supercharger on one engine would at a shit-load of weight, what with tubing, cooling, blow-off valves, etc. etc. etc.

If it were viable and/or worth its weight in salt, it'd be on cars already, because i'm sure engineers have toyed with the idea for quite a long time.

 

[EvenStar]

I think the concept of a twin-charger is extremely difficult, just like Redline686 stated. But hang on, here's my dad! I'll ask him! (he's an engineer at GM)

But his response? "I don't know. Boost is boost; you can either have a little compressed air or a lot." So basically, all you're doing is putting MORE boost through the engine; it's the same as turning a boost controller from 4 to 8 psi. Another point he brought up is to look at jet engines; they're basically big turbochargers with a combustion chamber in the middle. It's feasible, but you'd have to modify the way that the supercharger compresses the already-compressed air. He drew out a big diagram that I can't make.

He's an engineer, I'm a film student, so I don't really grasp it perfectly.

To sum it up: twin charging is inefficient; just turn up the boost on the F.I. you've already got! Not to mention, a turbo & a supercharger on one engine would at a shit-load of weight, what with tubing, cooling, blow-off valves, etc. etc. etc.

If it were viable and/or worth its weight in salt, it'd be on cars already, because i'm sure engineers have toyed with the idea for quite a long time.

In response to this its not like its an experimental technology. I've seen articles on MR2 Turbos with this "twincharging" setup, basically running everything at once. The older toyota engines seem to handle them fine..I would assume you just have to get ALOT of cooling in there..and I mean alot. The setup I saw was pushing an MR2 Turbo around 375 to the wheels (which other engine modifications to help with the pressure). All in all I think it IS a viable way to mod your car, you just have to be smart about it. Basically I say dont slap one on your car and not expect problems..you probably have to work on a good amount of internals to withstand the heat and pressures, as well as a good intercooling setup. But all in all its a unique/reliable way to produce more power. Granted its new..and has been improved over the years, and truthfully not many companies do it (especially big names). I see it as a lucky find really, and in any case Psi-Fi is the only company I have ever heard of R&Ding and marketing such...Big players like HKS, Turbonetics, or Greddy don't go in on it.
What I'm saying here is I think its a worthwhile project, something new and exciting..will it work? Well I say wait for results!

 

[johnboy8221]

all it is really is just the supercharger is helping spool the turbo at low rpms and basically the turbo just takes over from there. they have already done this successfully with a mini cooper which i belive has a simialar super charger

 

[Aeain]

It's basically a Twincharger set-up is a Twin-Turbo set-up. It's the same princable.

 

[Sp00ner]

It's basically a Twincharger set-up is a Twin-Turbo set-up. It's the same princable.

Bingo! We have a winner!

 

[Redline686]

restriction

all it is really is just the supercharger is helping spool the turbo at low rpms and basically the turbo just takes over from there. they have already done this successfully with a mini cooper which i belive has a simialar super charger

im still not convinced. Once the turbo is spooled up and producing more boost than the supercharger, the supercharger would actually cause a restriction in the intake path. This would cause drastic power loss. I'm sure there might be a way to when the turbo is running faster than the supercharger to bypass the supercharger but once again, that is extremely complicated. And even if it did work out somehow, putting 20 pounds of boost or more in an engine is unsafe. It would definetly cut the engine life in half or more. Thats why the 4cyl dragsters that run 35+ pounds have to be rebuilt after every race.

 

[Sp00ner]

im still not convinced. Once the turbo is spooled up and producing more boost than the supercharger, the supercharger would actually cause a restriction in the intake path. This would cause drastic power loss. I'm sure there might be a way to when the turbo is running faster than the supercharger to bypass the supercharger but once again, that is extremely complicated. And even if it did work out somehow, putting 20 pounds of boost or more in an engine is unsafe. It would definetly cut the engine life in half or more. Thats why the 4cyl dragsters that run 35+ pounds have to be rebuilt after every race.

Look, this is nuts. The guys that are doing this are forced induction specialty engineers. You think this is hard? Ever seen an stealth bomber? First of all, they already have done it to a car. Second, it's not a new things, Mercedes was playing with this same setup since the mid 1940's, and I have a book that details the exact same setup, tracing it's car application to the mid 1970's. It's been done, it's been done successfully, and it will be done again. There is no such thing as an 'unsafe' level of boost in absolute terms. It's all relative to the engine, go tell someone in an Evo that 20 lbs of boost will kill your engine. They run just under 20 stock. It's not a matter of the speed of the turbocharger vs. supercharger. All that matters is heat, and pressure. As long as the heat is controlable, and the pressure is not too much for the engine to handle, it's all good.

Go on the net and search for 'ecotec performance GM' somewhere in the list you'll see the trials that they put this engine through and what they say it can handle. The stock internals are able to handle a LOT of power, I could be wrong, but I think they were almost at 30lbs of boost before the stock head gaskets went. That was done using a huge turbo setup so they could vary the boost from 12, to as high as they could go.

If you want to think that this is crazy experimental technology, it's not, it's old news in all honesty. People haven't been doing it because most cars are coming with turbos if anything, and it's easier to sell a 'turbo upgrade'. A few people have already said this, it's no different than a twin turbo set up. Which was developed around the same time as the twincharger set up and there is also a twin-supercharger setup that Mercedes used during WWII(?) or shortly before/after. Again, it's been done, can be done, and will be done again.

 

[haunter]

im still not convinced. Once the turbo is spooled up and producing more boost than the supercharger, the supercharger would actually cause a restriction in the intake path. This would cause drastic power loss. I'm sure there might be a way to when the turbo is running faster than the supercharger to bypass the supercharger but once again, that is extremely complicated. And even if it did work out somehow, putting 20 pounds of boost or more in an engine is unsafe. It would definetly cut the engine life in half or more. Thats why the 4cyl dragsters that run 35+ pounds have to be rebuilt after every race.

Stop talking.

Twincharging is a time proven and effective way to make power, tuning it is the biggest headache from what I understand.

 

[slt]

Here's a twincharger system going on an Evo. The guy is hoping to have it done by May. I think a big challenge is smoothing out the transition between the super and the turbo charger. I would think that you would really want the supercharger to disengage once the turbo kicked in so it wasn't still pulling power off the engine. Maybe with something like an A/C pulley. I will be highly impressed if these guys at PSI-FI can get a reliable system to market. Its a good idea, but the execution is a bitch.

 

[Redline686]

Dude...

Stop talking.

Twincharging is a time proven and effective way to make power, tuning it is the biggest headache from what I understand.

Dude...it was a question and concern, I didn't mean to get your panty's in a bunch. Go take some Midol to soothe your monthly cramps then log on again.

Bah anyway, alright well if its safe its safe, if it works it works but regardless of that or not its still complicated and probably hecka expensive. That pic of the Evo is impressive, before this thread I had never heard of a 'superturbo'. But hey, I'm going to look at that GM performance division center to look at the engine's boost limits and stuff but do you know off hand whats that maximum RPM? That's what I wanna know. I'm guessing ~7000 just cuz it was destroked. Shit nevermind dont answer that, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. Yah so guys how about that twin-charging set-up...