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Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone hooked up a scan tool to their Redline? I use EFILive for my LS1 Camaro, and on my ex-wife's 2000 Malibu I could scan and log generic parameters like ECT, KR, Speed, RPM, IAT, etc. This should work just the same for the LSJ considering it is OBDII electronics. My friend is taking the Cobalt SS to the track Friday, so I'll see what I can log with my EFILive. My main goal is to take a look at the O2 readouts to kind of gauge the AFR and also see how easily the engine experiences knock in the higher RPMs. If everything looks good then we'll be spraying a 50 dry shot. If anyone has done this or knows that it won't work please let me know so I don't waste my time trying to read his PCM. The Redline and SS have the traditional OBDII comm port, right?
 

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Yeah itll work. There is a memer who had his attaced to the car and it kept stalling out when he would drive it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
You mean the car would stall with the cable attached? Was it an Autotap cable?
 

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DarricksZ28 said:
You mean the car would stall with the cable attached? Was it an Autotap cable?
I drove around with my friends autotap cable on my car and didnt have any problems. plus it reports a 20% load on your engine when you're at idle because of the supercharger ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
So you were able to log O2 readouts and Knock Retard?
 

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I used my LS1M to log some parameters on mine. It did read O2's and most other parameters, but, mine would not read KR :( . It did read LTFT's, IAT,ECT,Boost, and most others. Look for my old post in Redline general discussion titled "Did some datalogging last night" I have also used it to read and clear a SES code. Try it out! Let us know if EFIlive will read the knock sensor.
Jim
 

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Discussion Starter #7
No luck with the knock sensor in EFILive. Also I have to scan and record in an unconventional manner. I have to clear all parameters, select one parameter, then start the log, after the log is started then I open up the pid file with all the other parameters. We played around with it for about 2 hours, and we made pretty good progress considering this is a completely new avenue for this engine. We logged a 20-125mph run and a 30-115mph run. The stock tune looks dead on really. The [email protected] was 16-18 degrees and the O2 was hanging steady at .890mv. Eventhough widebands are far more accurate, the stock narrowband O2 reading would suggest that the mixture is close to ideal. We logged RPM, Speed, MAP, MAF, Injector pulse width, ECT, IAT, and O2 readout. We exported the file to Excel. It's on his computer though, otherwise I would post it. Some of the data was weird though, I'll have to look at it tomorrow at the track. I also was hoping that maybe I could use my Flashscan to download the PCM file, but no luck on that one. Flashscan gave me a PCM Locked error :eek: . So that is out of the question for now, someone really needs to crack this PCM! This engine will definitely be a force to reckon with. If we can get software, 12s would be no problem. There's stuff out there that can be used for this engine you just have to know where to look ;) We'll fill you in tomorrow after our track night. Hopefully we'll have the nitrous ready to go in a couple of weeks. I have a question, where exactly is the MAF Sensor? I didn't see one anywhere. Is there even a MAF sensor on the LSJ? The only thing I could think of is that the sensor is integrated in the throttle body. I see the car is throttle by wire. I just looked through the validated PIDs and I didn't see a MAF Freq PID. So that would tell me that there isn't a MAF Sensor, and the PCM is a speed density platform. Anyone have any definite info on this?
 

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Yea, follow the intake down, and you'll see the wires near the union of the intake and the airbox lid.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Is the airbox on the Red Line down in the fender well? On his Cobalt, the filter box in completely invisible from the top. He says you have to take off the front tire to change the air filter. :( That sucks. So there is a MAF, it's just a mile from the throttle inlet :rolleyes: , great. Well, I'll take a look this evening under the car and see if there's any room for the nitrous jet. Thanks for the info.
 

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We can see it on ours, it sits low, but not hidden.

The tube from the supercharger makes a 90 degree bend down, and about 12" down, it connects to the top of the airbox. I could see taking the wheel off, to change ours, maybe. I know they're a little different, since the K&N intake dosen't swap between the two cars.
 

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DarricksZ28 said:
The stock tune looks dead on really. The [email protected] was 16-18 degrees and the O2 was hanging steady at .890mv. Eventhough widebands are far more accurate, the stock narrowband O2 reading would suggest that the mixture is close to ideal.
DarrricksZ28
Assuming by .890mv you either meant 890mV or .89V, A scanned value of 890mV on a narrow band sensor cannot be interpreted to be anything but RICHER THAN 14.7:1. To allude that .890mv somehow indicates "close to ideal" is preposterous!
(FYI you cannot intepret narrow band O2 voltage values using wide band O2 voltage transfer functions)
On another note:
Below is the list of available scan data PIDs for the RedLine LSJ
I'm not real familiar wth LS1M or other Palm Pilot based scan tools but maybe with the list you can get LS1M support to reconfigure the application for the RL.
Code:
AC OFF for WOT	Yes/No
AC Pressure Disable	Yes/No
A/C Relay Command	On/Off
A/C Request	Yes/No
Air Fuel Ratio	Ratio
APP Indicated Angle	0-99%
APP Sensor 1	Volts
APP Sensor 1	0-99%
APP Sensor 2	Volts
APP Sensor 2	0-99%
APP Sensor 1 and 2	Agree/Disagree
APP Sensor 1 Circuit Status	OK/Fault
APP Sensor 2 Circuit Status	OK/Fault
BARO	Volts
BARO	kPa
SC Inlet Pressure	kPa
SC Inlet Pressure Sensor	Volts
Boost Duty Cycle	0-99%
Catalytic Converter Protection Active	Yes/No
CKP Active Counter	1-250
CMP Active Counter	Counts
CMP Sensor	RPM
Cold Start Up	Yes/No
Crank Request Signal	Yes/No
Cruise Control Active	Yes/No
Cruise Disengage*1 History	
Cruise Disengage*2 History	
Cruise Disengage*3 History	
Cruise Disengage*4 History	
Cruise Disengage*5 History	
Cruise Disengage*6 History	
Cruise Disengage*7 History	
Cruise Disengage*8 History	
Cruise ON/OFF Switch	On/Off
Cruise Resume/Accel. Switch	On/Off
Cruise Set/Coast Switch	On/Off
Cycles of Misfire Data	0-100 Counts
Decel Fuel Cutoff	Active/Inactive
Desired Idle Speed	RPM
EC Ignition Relay Feedback Signal	Volts
Engine Oil Life Remaining	0-100%
ECT Sensor	-40 to +150°C
Engine OFF Time	Hours, Minutes, Seconds
Engine Load	0-100%
Engine Oil Pressure Switch	OK/Low
Engine Run Time	Hrs, Min, Sec
Engine Speed	0-10,000*RPM
EVAP Fault History	
EVAP Purge Solenoid Command	0-100%
EVAP Vent Solenoid Command	Not Venting/Venting
FC Relay*1 Command	On/Off
FC Relay*2 Command	On/Off
Fuel Tank Level Remaining	0-100%
Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor	mm/Hg
Fuel Tank Pressure Sensor	Volts
Fuel Trim Cell	0-23
Fuel Trim Learn	Able/Disable
Fuel Level Sensor	0-2.5 Volts
Fuel Pump Relay Command	On/Off
Gen F - Terminal Signal	%
Gen L - Terminal Signal	Voltage/No Voltage
HO2S 1	mV
HO2S 2	mV
HO2S 1 Heater	Amps
HO2S 2 Heater	Amps
Hot Open Loop	Active/Inactive
IAT Sensor	-40 to +152°C (-40 to +305°F)
Ignition Accessory Signal	On/Off
Ignition*1 Signal	0-25*Volts
Intercooler Pump	On/Off
Initial Brake Apply Signal	Applied/Released
Injector PWM	Milliseconds
Knock Retard	Degrees
Long Term FT	%
Long Term FT Avg	%
Loop Status	Open/Closed
MAF Sensor	Hz
MAF Sensor	g/s
MAP Sensor	kPa
Medium Resolution Resync Counter	Counts
MIL Command	Off/On
MIL Requested By DTC	No/Yes
Mileage Since DTC Clear	Km
Misfire Current Cyl 1	
Misfire Current Cyl 2	
Misfire Current Cyl 3	
Misfire Current Cyl 4	
Misfire History Cyl 1	
Misfire History Cyl 2	
Misfire History Cyl 3	
Misfire History Cyl 4
Non-Driven Wheel Speed	km/h
PCM Reset	Yes/No
Power Enrichment	Active/Inactive
Reduced Engine Power	Active/Inactive
Reference Voltage 1 Signal	Volts
Reference Voltage 2 Signal	Volts
Short Term FT	%
Short Term FT Avg	%
Spark	Degrees
Start Up ECT	°C/°F
Start Up IAT	°C/°F
Starter Relay Command	ON/OFF
Stop Lamp Pedal Switch	Released/Applied
TFT Sensor	°C/°F
Total Misfire Count	Count
TP Desired Angle	%
TP Sensor*1 Learned Minimum	Volts
TP Sensor*2 Learned Minimum	Volts
Torque Request Signal	%
Torque Delivered Signal	%
TP Indicated Angle	%
TP Sensors 1 and 2	Agree/Disagree
TP Sensor 1	0-100%
TP Sensor 2	0-100%
TP Sensor 1	0-5.0*Volts
TP Sensor 2	0-5.0*Volts
Traction Control Status	Active/Inactive
TWC Temperature Calculated	C
Vehicle Security Status	Fuel Enabled/Disabled
Vehicle Speed Sensor	km/h
Warm-ups w/o Non-Emissions Faults	Counts
Warm-ups w/o Emissions Faults	Counts
Regards
WopOnTour
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I was referring to WOT O2 readouts, and yes its .890mV. Which is richer than Stoich. I know that narrowband O2s are no where near as accurate as Widebands. It's preposterous that you would want your AFR at stoich under WOT! That .890mV is not the count rate, when the computer sees a WOT or near WOT condition it switches to open loop mode. When this happens its running a predetermined tune that the computer has commanded in it. So at WOT the O2s are reading a constant voltage. I tuned my LS1 near perfect using the stock O2s. It takes a lot longer and more time consuming but it does work. It's also a long process that I won't get into. What exactly do you mean about "you can not interpret narrow band voltages using wideband O2 transfer functions?" Nobody said you could! They're two completely different types of sensors and I have no way of even reading a Wideband.
 

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DarricksZ28 said:
I was referring to WOT O2 readouts, and yes its .890mV. Which is richer than Stoich. I know that narrowband O2s are no where near as accurate as Widebands. It's preposterous that you would want your AFR at stoich under WOT! That .890mV is not the count rate, when the computer sees a WOT or near WOT condition it switches to open loop mode. When this happens its running a predetermined tune that the computer has commanded in it. So at WOT the O2s are reading a constant voltage. I tuned my LS1 near perfect using the stock O2s. It takes a lot longer and more time consuming but it does work. It's also a long process that I won't get into. What exactly do you mean about "you can not interpret narrow band voltages using wideband O2 transfer functions?" Nobody said you could! They're two completely different types of sensors and I have no way of even reading a Wideband.
DarricksZ28-Since you got me in the mood for trolling for tuna...
Who said we wanted "stoic" at WOT?? (Not sure where you got that from)
Almost anyone knows you require somewhere between 12-13:1 for maximum power- you just CANNOT use a narrow band O2 to confirm you are there is all I was implying.

This is because there is no voltage "linearity" to AFR in a narrow band oxygen sensor. Therefore all you can say when you have a voltage of 0.5 to 0.9 is that you're RICHER than 14.7:1 and when your voltage is LESS than 0.45 you are LEANER than 14.7:1 AND THAT IS ALL THAT CAN BE SAID
IN FACT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ESTABLISH HOW MUCH MORE RICHER 0.9 IS THAN 0.5!! ( it may be a little or it may be a lot depending on sensor temperature and the exisiting chemical concentration of ziconia element)

What I was trying to help you understand it that you cannot even make any relative guesstimate of WOT AFR from either 0.5V or 0.9V
Many have tried, and many have failed. Now I'm not saying there isnt a process to get a "close enough" narrow-band tune for road-load drivability
But for WOT throttle tuning, these days you absolutely MUST have a WBO2

Since you already have an EFILive scan tool, I can help you out here...
I call it my "wrecking yard WBO2" (aka a "Poorman's TechEdge")

1.Search the local wreking yards for a 2000-current Saturn L series or 2002-03 VUE with a V6 LLY engine.

2.Once located go purchase the Bosch ME3 ECM and both LSU4 O2 sensors (I paid $50 total)

3.Once you get those you can wire up both LSU4 WB02s to the module with your own harness. (The Bosch ECM is very small- about the size of an audio cassette- but it includes a PAIR of high end Bosch CJ125 ASICs that is considered the "creme de la creme" of LSU4 controllers)

4.Then you can then use your scan tool to monitor or log WBO2 or AFR using J1979 compatible PIDs that I think the EFILive will work with. I forget, does EFILive work with Keyword 2000? (K-line) Of course the TECH2 does which is what I use, but it's absolutely the least expensive way to get true 2-channel WB02 tuning. I have used it often to tune a myriad of GM V8s using LS1Edit, TunerCat and MegaTune. (A cheap man will always find a cheap solution)

If you (or anyone else here) happens to gather the neccessary materials to build their own WB02 controller / logger, just let me know and I'll either get you the wiring details or even make you a harness.

Regards
WopOnTour
*PS> and Derrick I was of course just kiding about the Tuna bit lol, anyone who's got a 12 second Camaro is "my kind" :D WOT
 

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Discussion Starter #15
So for $50 I can have a wideband 02 setup? I would like more info on that. So I buy the ECM from the Saturn L-series, and then purchase the O2 sensors? Sounds like a plan! I know that the way I did it isn't very accurate, and also I wouldn't want to do it again. I used the narrow band open loop readouts in combination with reading the plugs to get in the ball park of what the engine liked. I'm installing a 175 shot wet kit and will have to do the WOT tuning process over again to maximize the hit. That wideband setup you're talking about would benefit greatly! It's not really in my budget to go to a dyno to tune so I do all my WOT tuning mostly at the track. That way I can look at trap speed in reference to open loop readouts and plug reading. It sucks but it's alot easier on my wallet and also helps me learn more about my engine and what she likes. Could you PM me with details? I'd appreciate it greatly.
 
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