[fullthrottle]

As I look at the latest 1/4 mile list for these little rocket ships I see that there's now people in the low 12 second bracket. That is very impressive. Seems like using a stroked Ecotec is the way to do business. Has anyone tried to go even farther with the stroke and or an even bigger bore combo? I haven't been around these cars in a minute. I was thinking about buying another redline or cobalt just to have as a daily driver. It don't need to be moded or anything. I have a vette for stomping ass. . Anyway, it's good to see you guys hauling ass with these cars.

 

[hawlyns711]

pleasure to see you man, redlines are cheap now!!!

 

[GMRedline]

ZZP has taken your stroker idea to the next level.

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/710-Ecotec-Forged-Short-Block.aspx

Using the Gen II LNF and LE5 blocks they can pretty much offer any combination of desired displacement. 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4. by request.

No one has gone bigger then 2.4 because the block is not strong enough for that large of a bore.

Gen III ecotecs come in a 2.5L but are so different then the previous verisons it won't help us.

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/710-Ecotec-Forged-Short-Block.aspx

I am a big fan of a 2.1L ecotec. LE5 bore 88mm with LSJ stroke 86mm. ZZP is running one in their 9 second auto Cobalt.

That combo would avoid all the headache you ran into trying to match up a 6 bolt crank to a LSJ trans. Although ZZP claims that you could bolt on one of their Aluminium Fidanza flywheels for a LE5 and it will mate up with most aftermarket clutches for the LSJ.

 

[Droxity]

Saw this on Pass Time last night switching during MNF commercials.

GMTunerSource.com - Turbo Street Cobalt to Appear on Pass Time on SPEED

 

[fullthrottle]

I saw that ZZP has taken the 2.4L Ecotec to the next level.

What about doing a sleeved block, you should be able to achieve a larger bore that way and limit (to a degree) the stress on the block itself. I think using the 6 bolt main cap (like the LSx engine) would greatly improve bottom end strength as well. Of course all of this would cost a pretty penny but may be worth it to the hardcore race guy. It would be even cooler if GMPP developed a race block for the ECOTEC crowd like they did for the LSx crowd.

ZZP has taken your stroker idea to the next level.

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/710-Ecotec-Forged-Short-Block.aspx

Using the Gen II LNF and LE5 blocks they can pretty much offer any combination of desired displacement. 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4. by request.

No one has gone bigger then 2.4 because the block is not strong enough for that large of a bore.

Gen III ecotecs come in a 2.5L but are so different then the previous verisons it won't help us.

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/710-Ecotec-Forged-Short-Block.aspx

I am a big fan of a 2.1L ecotec. LE5 bore 88mm with LSJ stroke 86mm. ZZP is running one in their 9 second auto Cobalt.
Ryan's ZZPerformance Powered Cobalt run's 9"s - YouTube

That combo would avoid all the headache you ran into trying to match up a 6 bolt crank to a LSJ trans. Although ZZP claims that you could bolt on one of their Aluminium Fidanza flywheels for a LE5 and it will mate up with most aftermarket clutches for the LSJ.

 

[fullthrottle]

pleasure to see you man, redlines are cheap now!!!

Likewise brother.

 

[GMRedline]

There is actually a pretty good debate about sleeve blocks going on the shortbus.

http://www.lsjforums.com/forums/2-0l-lsj-performance-tech-47/bates-sleeved-blocks-264562/

Here is what you need to know.

There are several issues with sleeving the block.

-It has a high chance of not being done right. As you see from many, many posts here on ss.net, sleeved blocks have a high failure rate. This can be burning oil, low performance, a motor that quickly wears out, piston skirt damage, cracked block and so forth. You can greatly reduce their #1 issue (improper install) by having one of a few select shops specializing with this who have experience with the Ecotec motor.

-Strength. Most people do not understand modification of a performance build. They believe that when a part fails, you replace it with a stronger part. Normally this part is 'beefier' than the OEM component. What 98% of consumers don't yet grasp is that 'fixing' something often moves a problem from one area to another. They then feel that this next problem needs to be 'fixed' with a beefier part. ZZP's success has been, in part, due to understanding that going fast is JUST as much about what you DON'T do as what you do. NOT replacing parts or 'upgrading' them can be the best mod you can do.

In the 3800 market, the transmissions didn't shift hard. So this was 'fixed' by shops removing the wave plates so the shifts would hit. After that, the input shafts broke so they were beefed up. Then the flex plates we're cracking so larger ones we're installed. Then the input shafts started failing again so larger ones were installed. There's more to it but the real issue was always that 'fixing' one problem created another. Think of it as drugs with side effects that you need to take other drugs for. Pretty soon you're taking 10 meds and can't remember what the original problem even was!

Anyway, back to the Ecotec sleeves. The OEM sleeves are extremely strong. They are steel, the problem is that they are completely unsupported at the area they receive the most stress. When breaking people thought the sleeves we're weak so they installed darton kits. Problem with Darton sleeves is that they destroy your block. The block becomes weak, cooling is greatly reduced, weight is increased. The picture below shows this on two blocks cut in 1/2. 1st, see the red between cylinders? that's from cracking where the block is cut so thin that it can't hold expansion contraction of steel sleeves which grow at a different rate. Alum is brittle. The lock tite went right inbetween cylinders into the cracks that the owner didn't even know were there. 2nd, look at the sleeve casing of the block and edges. That is all that is holding the block together now. You've cut HALF of the material holding the top and bottom of the block together. This is why high HP builds break them in 2 and have to be 'fixed' by running studs top to bottom.

Finally, there is cost. Darton sleeves cost nearly 700. Installation of them will bring cost well over a grand and even higher if done by a reliable shop. All to weaken your block, reduce cooling, and create potential issues. This used to be the only option. ZZP has corrected this entire mess with an affordable solution. The engine girdle. Original tried by GM, ZZP pioneered a process that eliminates the issues GM suffered when trying and ultimately giving up on this.

My point is that a block has to have something done or the sleeves will crack. Currently that's either Darton which makes other parts of the block less reliable or ZZP engine girdle. The engine girdle is less expensive than the sleeves no matter what. People just compare apples and oranges when looking at our motor. You can't compare the price of an entire engine build to the price of a a single upgrade to your existing build.

We'll have this on the site again shortly.

Of course ZZ Performance would knock our product because he is trying to sell his own. Little history on the Ecotec kit. The Ecotec 2.2L kit was the first wet sleeve kit we made. These were originally designed for John Lingenfelter when he raced the Cobalt. He would have never been able to run the times he did if the kit weakened the block. The Ecotec kit has been available for about 10 years. Would we have been able to sell them for this long if they did not work?

As for cracking the block. All the MID wet sleeves remove that much material from the block. But this is not a factor if installed correctly. The only way the block cracks is from incorrect installation. There is more than enough material in the block to support the sleeves. Pressing the sleeves in will crack the block but the sleeves are installed with clearance and a press.

If the MID style sleeves remove too much material then how was Aeromotive able to break the record for fasted MOD dragster or how was AMS able to have the fastest GTR and first to run 8's. How did Vinny Ten run a 6.61 quater mile in the Performance Motorsports 350z? This past weekend Avid Racing ran a 8.97 pass with his K20 block in Sport FWD trim? Why does Roush use our kits in thier drag cars? Kpax Racing would not have been able to win the championship in WCC without using our kit. One of our drag cars which is a Honda has over 300 passes on it before we tore it down just to change pistons and those blocks are thinner than the Ecotec between the cylinders.

The issue people have with our kits is incorrect installation. We would not be able to have over 40 different applications for the MID sleeve is it reomoved to much material. Poeple bash the kit due to lack of experience or because their product isnt good enough to stand on their own, they need to bash ours to try and make theirs look better.

I'm not bashing the product. A lot of people make sleeves. Clearly you didn't read or don't understand my post. The application and use is the problem, not the product itself.
Comparing a 350Z or GTR to an Ecotec is pointless. Those blocks don't suffer from the same issues as the Ecotec.

If you look at the pictures and understand them, the Ecotec block does not have much material holding it together. Installing these sleeves weakens the already average block considerably. This is why GM and other high HP people were splitting them in 1/2 and had to stud them all the way through. You can see exactly where they split and it's where you have to machine away material to install sleeves. Furthermore the Gen 2 block moves the sleeve support down and changes diameter of supported areas. A Darton sleeved Gen 2 block is going to fail quickly. Much quicker than a sleeved Gen 1 block. I have it pictured because we are Ecotec specialists and do destructive testing and tech articles to educate our consumers rather than just selling it and letting customers figure out how things are working.

ZZP does the Ecotec motor. That's it. We have a team who did the 3800 and it's a stable platform we moved development away from years ago. Mr. Darton, you have shown your ignorance to this discussion by bringing in other motors. Every motor made has unique problems and failure points and the optimum solution will be unique for each motor. You believe every motor needs sleeves because that's what you sell. You even site a bunch of other platforms running fast with your product as somehow proof that this market needs them. Ignorance and inexperience. ZZP is not in all of your markets telling everyone sleeving blocks is bad and girdling is the way to go. I wouldn't be so arrogant to believe I was an expert with every motor. ZZP has the experience and track record to know what is best for the Ecotec and we offer a BETTER solution at a lower price than sleeving the block. If sleeving was a better option, we'd offer that. We're interested in making HP and the best products for this market. We are not limited to one product that we tell every market they need and then whine and complain when a vendor isn't pushing it as the best solution.

Finally, whether it's install error or not; there are a TON of guys in this market with failed sleeved blocks. That's just a fact. Keep touting install error if you want but why take the chance with a product that isn't needed, costs more and has an extremely high rate of 'install error'?
-------------
ZZP has done 16 girdled blocks and so far we have a zero failure rate with sleeves, piston skirts, rings, etc. Anything related to cylinder bore.
We have the highest HP engines on the forums running our stuff and the highest HP street car test done. 898WHP in a car that still drives on the street and can run pump gas with parts we sell.
Sleeved blocks on this forum have a VERY high failure rate. I never blamed it on the sleeves or the Darton brand. In fact, I stated that going this route it's pretty much mandatory to have Darton or an experienced shop with a proven track record doing them. 16 and 0 is pretty impressive. One of them is in a car where we replaced a Darton sleeved block that cracked. So while it's possible to have good success sleeving this motor, why would you? It's less money, more reliable, comes with a real warranty, and will ultimately handle more power going the ZZP route. Haven't we seen enough 'failed build' or people giving up after a year of updates threads? Time to start making power and stop wrenching, time to go ZZP!

 

[GMRedline]

There have been a few people who have done over bores on a LSJ Sleeved block. Philzoot has a 90mm bore with an 86mm stroke on his Bates sleeved block resulting in a 2.2L.

http://www.redlineforums.com/forums/performance-modifications/42088-wtf-check-out.html

Technically, he could throw in a LE5 crank and get a 2.5L ecotec.

Over the Top Performance has sold half a dozen of their sleeved race blocks with a .1" (2.5mm) overbore. With an LE5 crank those blocks would come in just over 2.4L total displacement.

 

[fullthrottle]

I remember discussing pretty much all of these issues with certain ECOTEC enthusiast way back in the day. I agree that most of the failures caused by installing aftermarket sleeves is the installation itself. There are qualified shops around who can do it correctly. Of course, one is going to spend money to get this done. The basic architecture of the LSJ, LE5 Ect. is the same. I mean Ecotec blocks have been being highly modified and hot rodded long before any of us (including myself) were playing with them. I still think that if one wants to spend the money and utilize a custom stroke along with a custom piston bore size you could achieve even more displacement and even more power. If I wasn't so into my vette I'd be willing to give her a shot. ZZP has done an amazing job with support for these cars.

ERL will adapt one of their super deck set ups to an ECOTEC block too I remember talking to them about it years ago.

 

[GMRedline]

I remember discussing pretty much all of these issues with certain ECOTEC enthusiast way back in the day. I agree that most of the failures caused by installing aftermarket sleeves is the installation itself. There are qualified shops around who can do it correctly. Of course, one is going to spend money to get this done.

I agree with that 100%. But that's what makes these builds more expensive. You can't just take it to your local machine shop and expect good results.

The basic architecture of the LSJ, LE5 Ect. is the same. I mean Ecotec blocks have been being highly modified and hot rodded long before any of us (including myself) were playing with them. I still think that if one wants to spend the money and utilize a custom stroke along with a custom piston bore size you could achieve even more displacement and even more power. If I wasn't so into my vette I'd be willing to give her a shot.

I think that depends on the power adder and how the car is used.

The one downside that some people have found with the "stroker" ecotecs in high hp application is the increase in low end TQ. Most of us consider that a good thing but on a FWD application, it can work against you. Traction is already a huge issue for these high horsepower drag cars.

<Another story about ZZP>

ZZP prefers the less torqy, faster reving 2.1L (88 x 86) over the a 2.4L (88 x 98) in their drag cars. Of course a 2.4L is going to make more peak hp in an apples to apples situation. But when matching hp to a usable powerband, they like the 2.1L. With a big turbo and a fully built engine, a 2.0L could make 700hp and a 2.5L could make 800hp. But when you only need 600hp to get down the track does it really matter?

Supercharged applications are a little different. Superchargers have a narrower obtainable HP range. On the M62, a fully built 2.0L might be capable of 350hp and a 2.5L might be capable of 450hp. That difference could make a 12 second car an 10 second car.

ZZP put down over 400whp with their 2.4L LSJ stroker.
http://www.redlineforums.com/forums/performance-modifications/46826-tvs-needed-400whp-nope.html

That is pulling out all the stops and revving to 9500 if your into that kind of thing!

It really just depends what kind of car you want to build.

 

[GMRedline]

The last thing that I will add is that the stock block is pretty tough. Most people will never hit the HP limit of the engine with good tuning.

Back in your day, people used to pop these engines left and right running the Intense Stage 5 kit or with bad tuning. I am sure you could speak of it much better then me. I came into the game just as people started to get smart and use cooling mods.

I will say that it is impossible to break the stock LSJ block with good tuning and the M62. As long as KR, AFRs and IAT2s are kept in check, the LSJ will take all the punishment the M62 can put out. If one of those 3 things is not kept in check then its considered abuse.

 

[fullthrottle]

Agreed bud. It's pretty awesome that ZZP has stuck it out with this crew and I remember when making 300 WHP was incredible. (though I achieved that mark and then some way back then and was at 400 WHP with a tiny 2.5 or maybe it was a 2.4 pully on the eaton M62). I called it good at 280 WHP though because at the time that was plenty for me with that car. you guys are dwarfing my power numbers with now readily available stroker combos, turbo systems and TVS blowers Ect. I think a lot of the reason people were popping these engines left and right was because of tuning or the lack there of. It's the same in the LSx world. I mean I've seen guys pop 3 or 4 forged engines with only 550 WHP. Then I've seen twin turbo stock block LS6 engines living happy well north of 700 WHP. Me personally, I popped my LS6 based forged 383 stroker and it was only at 12 psi peak and made right under 700 WHP and over 600 WTQ. Mine poped due to component failure not tuning though. I was running bone stock heads on my last setup and the stock valves and rockers couldn't take the heavy duty springs along with the boost. So I did what I always do built a bigger engine, put better heads and valve train in as well as a bigger blower. I'm still working on it but I fully expect it to make over 800 WHP on relatively moderate boost and over 1,000 WHP when I crank up the boost.

On another note to he double hockey sticks with intense.

 

[GMRedline]

Does anyone else have any opinions? I say all this but I have never once opened up my long block. My engine is completely stock from the valve cover to the oil pan.

 

[zrated89]

mines completely stock, head as well and im probably around 350whp on my race gas tune that i trapped 117mph on with a 1.7 60'. My car has 72k miles on her and i beat on her on a day to day basis with many track events. Last compression test was 225 across the board. Tuning is key! (and my many cooling mods)

 

[AlphaJaguar5]

OMG! Full Throttle!

Hey! Hey! Hey! Full Throttle!

Hey!