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NoRemorse said:
My engine is staying in the bay for another month or 2 yet. I just want to be ready to get a lot of things done fast when I tear it out.

I am pulling up drawings of the block to see the rear bearings as we speak actually

Here is a little teaser to show that I am working on this at least to some degree ;) I blacked everything out, even though you would need the key anyways, but it makes me feel more comfortable posting apiece of this drawing.

Image

Can we play fill in the blanks... :bouncy:
 
Discussion starter · #62 ·
philly938 said:
Can we play fill in the blanks... :bouncy:
lol, they are not dimensions or anything (maybe 2 of them are) most of them are just call outs to other drawings.

There are maybe 6 files that make up the block, and each of those files contains maybe 5 drawings, and all associated sectional views. It is hell looking at them am trying to find what you need!

Actually most/all of the engine drawings are in English and German because it is assembled in Germany. PITA
 
Good explanation of the balance shaft system NR
There's lot to it actually...

There are a lot of "forces" occurring in a reciprocating engine. Forces due to the energy from combustion AND inertial forces are the most predominant. At lower engine speeds the combustion force is more predominant however as the engine speeds increase so do the inertial forces that eventually overtake the forces of combustion.

Most 1st order inertial energy occurs along the cylinder axis, which is vertical in a 4cyl engine (peaking at TDC and BDC) and is offset by crankshaft counter-balancing, as well as careful balancing of all rotating and reciprocating masses, combined with torsional damping devices. (e.g. crankshaft vibration damper, flywheel etc)

However significant 2nd order vibrations actually occur LATTERALY in an 4 cylinder engine (all engines actually but lesser so in V engines) due to the extreme connecting rod angles formed by 180 degree crankshaft throw spacing (most predominant at 90 degrees after TDC). So certainly force on the piston due to combustion gets transmitted to the piston and then to the connecting rod, but due to the rod angle formed as the piston moves down to 1/2 bore, ever changing levels of LATERAL force gets transmitted from the piston to the cylinder wall and even to the crank main bearings.

This occurs TWICE every crankshaft revolution, once for each ignition event (hence second order) . So the rotating balance shaft system attempts to keep a counter-effecting mass, "in-phase+180 degrees" with these lateral forces. As engine speed increases this effect is diminished as inertial forces eventually overtake- so the balance shaft system becomes constantly less effective as engine speed increases.

Below are a couple of a pics of the balance shaft system used in the Ecotec.(*Full credit to General Motors Corp of course) Note how the shafts rotate in opposite directions and at twice the speed of the crankshaft SO the balance shaft counter weighting can be 180 degrees out of phase with these forces for BOTH cylinders that fire within each crankshaft rotation, in order to effectively cancel them out.

As far as removing them goes. This HAS been done on the engines that utilize dry sump oiling. However the galleries that feed the rear balance shaft bearings (more of a bushing) are somewhat difficult to plug. One method is to use the special tool used to remove and reinstall the bushing, and install a specially prepared bushing that effectively plugs the gallery passage. Merely turning the bushing is not really an option due to the way the factory bushing designed. It has an oiling channel so that the bearing does not need to be perfectly lined up during factory insulation. However it CAN be modified so this channel is not effective. ;)

Testing at realistic RPM levels (<8000) has proven however that the use of simple GMPP "neutral" shaft assembly (i.e. perfectly balanced with reduced mass) is the most effective means of regaining the horsepower lost by rotating the stock counter balanced assembly. Electric water pumps require significant electrical current and add increased loads on the electrical system. So some of the perceived "gains" would be offset by additional belt loads on the generator.Plus for street, the "real-world" performance and reliability of the electrical pump and plumbing would need to be validated.

But IMO in a STREET engine, the gains provided by complete elimination of the shafts are not significant over and above the neutral shafts and are not worth the additional complexity and risk. However if the engine is expected to reach/exceed 10,000 RPM in a race-only application it still would be a very good idea. Remember at 10,000 crankshft RPM these shafts will be spinning at 20,000RPM! and it's doubtful that the entire stock chain drive mechanism has been validated to those speeds.

WopOnTour
 

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WopOnTour said:
However significant 2nd order vibrations actually occur LATTERALY in an 4 cylinder engine (all engines actually but lesser so in V engines) due to the extreme connecting rod angles formed by 180 degree crankshaft throw spacing (most predominantly at 90 degrees after TDC). So force on the piston due to combustion gets transmitted to the connecting rod, but due to the rod angle formed as the piston moves down to 1/2 bore, ever changing levels of LATERAL force gets transmitted from the piston to the cylinder wall and even to the crank main bearings.
Applies far less to a flat 4 IIRC. Just giving you hard time, big guy. :)
 
Shabodah said:
Applies far less to a flat 4 IIRC. Just giving you hard time, big guy. :)
Not so, because in a V engine the lateral forces are not only on a different vector plane, they offset by the opposing running mate piston that is at the same point in the stroke. (well except for odd-fire V6s LOL) as well as having higher firing frequencies.
How many V8's have you seen with balance shafts???
***
 
i would assume that if you put the neutrals back in(for oil pressure reasons as stated before) you could pull the pump and ditch the drain on the motor.

i would assume that a high end electric unit would actually be able to move the coolant around at a faster rate so it might not get "heat soaked" during a hot summer day as fast...something along those lines.

i like the idea.....
 
Discussion starter · #67 ·
WopOnTour said:
Electric water pumps require significant electrical current and add increased loads on the electrical system. So some of the perceived "gains" would be offset by additional belt loads on the generator.Plus for street, the "real-world" performance and reliability of the electrical pump and plumbing would need to be validated.

WopOnTour
But what about the added benefits of being able to run the water pump and the fans with out running the engine. I agree that the benefits from neutral to non existent is pretty much a non issue at these power levels/rpms, and that the drag of the chain on the water pump would be comparable to the added effort it would take to turn the alternator, so I can see the over all power loss/gain being the same, minus the added benefit of running the pump while the engine is off.

At this point I think I will just get the neutrals, as TTR can sell them fro $299 IIRC, I just like the idea of running fans/pump to cool the engine.
BTW)seriously one of the most informative posts I have seen in months about ANYTHING.
 
Pierre said:
Personal opinion...Electric water pumps are OK for a drag only car. The electric pump will give you maximum flow ( Moles per fortnight ) at all engine RPM's where as the mechanical pump will change flow with RPM. Never saw a road racer with one.

Pierre
+1

I don't think electric pumps last as long. I've been running one on my Malibu for years, but it's driven VERY rarely.
 
WopOnTour said:
Not so, because in a V engine the lateral forces are not only on a different vector plane, they offset by the opposing running mate piston that is at the same point in the stroke. (well except for odd-fire V6s LOL) as well as having higher firing frequencies.
How many V8's have you seen with balance shafts???
***
I've never seen a v8 with balance shafts, and I'm just giving you a hard time, but the NVH of a flat engine has been proven to be better than a 90 degree one IFAIK. Lack of mass seems to be its biggest issue.
 
Shabodah said:
I've never seen a v8 with balance shafts, and I'm just giving you a hard time, but the NVH of a flat engine has been proven to be better than a 90 degree one IFAIK. Lack of mass seems to be its biggest issue.
When in a RWD perhaps, but again, in strictly NVH terms- not one at 90 degrees to the x-axis of the vehicle as in FWD. The other thing is with 2 engines of equal displcement the V-8 will have less bore and stroke, which are also factors that affect the transmission of these forces due to rod angularity and piston to cylinder contct surface area.
***
 
NoRemorse said:
But what about the added benefits of being able to run the water pump and the fans with out running the engine. I agree that the benefits from neutral to non existent is pretty much a non issue at these power levels/rpms, and that the drag of the chain on the water pump would be comparable to the added effort it would take to turn the alternator, so I can see the over all power loss/gain being the same, minus the added benefit of running the pump while the engine is off.

At this point I think I will just get the neutrals, as TTR can sell them fro $299 IIRC, I just like the idea of running fans/pump to cool the engine.
BTW)seriously one of the most informative posts I have seen in months about ANYTHING.
Thanks NR- (I've edited my original post somewhat for spell'n and verbiage a bit)

and I hear what you're saying...
No doubt that's beneficial. We just use an aux electric pump tapped into the system that we run using a booster pack between rounds (as well as the fans and CAC pump) there's a thread in here somewhere describing how to do that.

Not trying to talk you out of it. You plan is sound, just not for the average Joe (however Handy) if you know what I mean :D
***
 
WopOnTour said:
When in a RWD perhaps, but again, in strictly NVH terms- not one at 90 degrees to the x-axis of the vehicle as in FWD. The other thing is with 2 engines of equal displcement the V-8 will have less bore and stroke, which are also factors that affect the transmission of these forces due to rod angularity and piston to cylinder contct surface area.
***
Short stroke Big bore FTW! lol. Subaru should make a light Front Engine/RWD setup, even if it goes against their AWD moto. It'd be fun. Looks like I'll be getting the V8 together sooner than planned. Woot! 6.0L block, 4.8L crank - see above. lol.
 
Discussion starter · #74 ·
Shabodah said:
Just thinking out loud, but wouldn't removing balance shafts from a Sky RL, have less adverse effects than removing them from an Ion RL by the logic above?
Less effect on vibrations, yes, on HP, no
 
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